"Internet and/or net-art: Is it still the same?"



Web Biennial 2010 e-conference Tuesday 09/11/10 btw 15:00 and 19:00 istanbul time zone- online through SKYPE chat.


Participants: Genco Gulan (Istanbul) moderator, anne roquigny (Paris), Daphne Dragona (Athens), Andre Tisma (Novi Sad), Dimitris Fotiu (Athens),  Julie Upmeyer (Istanbul), Marcus Graf (Istanbul -Asian side), Franck Ancel (On a bullet train to southern France), Tim Hailey (indiana), Andy Deck (New York), Andreas Jacobs (Amsterdam), Lanfranco (Sabanci), Ilias Marmaras (Athens)

[14:57:38] *** Genco Gulan, buraya { D F } adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[14:58:31] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Andrej Tisma adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[14:58:44] *** Genco Gulan, buraya carlo sansolo adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[14:58:56] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Daphne Dragona adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[14:59:56] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Julie Upmeyer adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[15:00:09] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Oliver Grau adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[15:00:35] Genco Gulan: It is 15:00 so lets start writting
[15:00:54] annnnnnnnnne: hello Genco
[15:01:15] Andrej Tisma: hi everybody
[15:01:19] Daphne Dragona: hello
[15:01:48] Andrej Tisma: Genco do you get all our texts
[15:02:14] annnnnnnnnne: we read you perfectly
[15:02:45] Andrej Tisma: ok so we can start discussion
[15:02:53] Genco Gulan: SO the title is "Internet and art-net: Is it still the same?"
[15:03:06] Genco Gulan: The first answer is NO
[15:03:15] Genco Gulan: but why?
[15:03:28] Andrej Tisma: art-net or net-art??
[15:03:45] Genco Gulan: OK. ANdrej net-art.
[15:03:47] annnnnnnnnne: or internet art
[15:03:56] Daphne Dragona: i think that we basically only can speak of net based art or networked art
[15:04:00] Andrej Tisma: there is a big differenc between the two
[15:04:14] annnnnnnnnne: or artists thinking the internet as a space for creation
[15:04:20] *** Çağrı sonlandırıldı, süre 06:42 ***
[15:04:26] Genco Gulan: We also need to talk about Web-art
[15:04:34] *** Daphne Dragona, buraya iliasmar adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[15:04:49] Genco Gulan: OR does the Web still exist?
[15:05:01] Genco Gulan: ilias are you with us?
[15:05:24] annnnnnnnnne: the web or the internet?-))
[15:05:38] Ilias Marmaras: yes i am
[15:05:47] Andrej Tisma: hi Ilias
[15:05:49] Ilias Marmaras: hello
[15:06:04] Daphne Dragona: anne this is ilias, ilias this is anne
[15:06:11] Daphne Dragona: i dont remember if you have met
[15:06:14] Ilias Marmaras: hi anne
[15:06:16] Genco Gulan: Yasu
[15:06:25] Ilias Marmaras: yasu genco
[15:06:46] Andrej Tisma: I will start with a stetement which is fundamental to  me
[15:06:56] annnnnnnnnne: hello
[15:06:58] Ilias Marmaras: hi andrej
[15:07:03] Andrej Tisma: Internet and net-art obviously changed, are not the same as before 10 years ago. Since the turn of millennia they are under the powerful influence of development of social networks, economic crises, state control, and commercialization.
[15:07:16] Julie Upmeyer: I'm Julie... I didn't get any text or info about what is going on here...so I will just listen. :)
[15:07:32] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Dr. Marcus Graf adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[15:07:35] annnnnnnnnne: nether have we-)) just join in!
[15:07:47] Genco Gulan: SKYPE is different now, we can communicate but not as it was before
[15:08:06] Ilias Marmaras: how it was before?
[15:08:13] annnnnnnnnne: i read an article on Wired magazine the other day the tittle is the "web is dead" http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/08/ff_webrip/all/1      saying that "the top 10 Web sites accounted for 31 percent of US pageviews in 2001, 40 percent in 2006, and about 75 percent in 2010"
[15:08:13] Dr. Marcus Graf: Hello Genco
[15:08:27] Genco Gulan: it was slower but we were mor-e ** independent
[15:08:33] Andrej Tisma: Internet is today not just a mean of communication, but a parallel reality.
[15:09:10] Genco Gulan: YES, it is no more virtual but REAL- like the supermarket chain brand ;-)
[15:09:14] Ilias Marmaras: in a way one may say that the increase interconnectivity means increase control?
[15:09:25] Daphne Dragona: and addiction and fear
[15:09:27] Dr. Marcus Graf: Genco, can you read me?
[15:09:31] Daphne Dragona: we are afraid to disconnect
[15:09:38] Genco Gulan: Hello Marcus, wilkommen
[15:09:40] Julie Upmeyer: but it is voluntary...participation is voluntary
[15:09:48] Ilias Marmaras: you can not disconect
[15:09:54] annnnnnnnnne: stay with us Daphne!
[15:09:59] Daphne Dragona: but try to not volunteer :)
[15:10:19] Ilias Marmaras: it is not voluntary it is an obligation as the mobile phones
[15:10:36] Ilias Marmaras: and it is not something new
[15:10:39] Genco Gulan: We are connected online but more disconnected in terms of relationships
[15:11:06] Ilias Marmaras: i remember in montevideo amsterdam in 1993 the slogan was : if you are not in net you do not exist
[15:11:08] annnnnnnnnne: what is interesting now that we can internet in our pockets is that people understand better that artists can thik the internet as space for creation
[15:11:12] Julie Upmeyer: well, I don't feel that way in my life. I talk to my mother twice or three times a week because of Skype...
[15:11:25] Julie Upmeyer: I would never do that if I had to call her or visit her.
[15:11:29] Andrej Tisma: With phenomena like FaceBook, Twitter, or Second Life there is no illusion and no privacy on the net anymore. It became a new reality, parallel reality.
[15:11:44] Julie Upmeyer: even if she is just online and I"m online I feel good, connected, even if we aren't chatting or talking
[15:12:07] annnnnnnnnne: what is also interesting is how the artist link the physical space and the virtual space  with projects using these devices
[15:12:09] Genco Gulan: Kids today dont see it as parallel, they see it as fact
[15:12:24] Daphne Dragona: there is this interesting book on the issue : alone together
http://www.amazon.com/Alone-Together-Expect-Technology-Other/dp/0465010210
[15:12:29] Daphne Dragona: but havent read it yet
[15:12:31] Ilias Marmaras: we face the moving house situation
[15:12:34] Andrej Tisma: Yes I mean that is a new reality
[15:12:52] Daphne Dragona: it is a fact.
[15:13:00] annnnnnnnnne: facebook and twitter close the space and keep us away from some space on the internet
[15:13:06] Daphne Dragona: there is no outside... as the wise men once said
[15:13:08] Genco Gulan: Yasu Dimitris
[15:13:08] { D F }: Hello all!
[15:13:10] { D F }:  :-)
[15:13:19] Andrej Tisma: Net-art is nowadays not an alternative to art and culture, but a parallel cultural sphere.
[15:13:20] annnnnnnnnne: hi
[15:13:27] Ilias Marmaras: if u are an immigrant in greece and you talk 3 times per week with ur family in india through skype then where  are the borders?
[15:13:38] Genco Gulan: Facebook is a new Web like the SKYPE
[15:13:47] annnnnnnnnne: even if  we can see the emergence of facebook and twitter art
[15:13:50] Genco Gulan: Brands started to create new universes
[15:14:18] Julie Upmeyer: the big disconnect comes between those who are on facebook and those who are not.  How are they suppose to get info? They become high mantinence
[15:14:33] annnnnnnnnne: Fb and twitter  applications  that work outsite the web
[15:14:42] Ilias Marmaras: the problem with net art is that never replaced the decadent contemporary pop art
[15:14:59] Genco Gulan: YES they are the new WWW’s: Web 02, Web 03…
[15:15:25] *** Genco Gulan, buraya İlayda Altuntaş adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[15:15:28] Daphne Dragona: net based art was only marginal and parasitic although created in the most emergining medium
[15:15:31] annnnnnnnnne: yes but internet art or networkart goes beyond net art
[15:15:45] Ilias Marmaras: true
[15:15:50] annnnnnnnnne: like telepresence project
[15:15:51] Ilias Marmaras: but ambiguous
[15:15:54] Daphne Dragona: i agree anne
[15:15:55] Andrej Tisma: The danger is in tendencies to control internet and it commercialization.
[15:16:02] { D F }: just checked what you 've been dicussing above. sorry for the delay
[15:16:04] Daphne Dragona: that s why i prefer not to use net art as a term
[15:16:11] Genco Gulan: Recently I tried to restore my "old" net-art peces but they are unrestorable.
[15:16:15] Andrej Tisma: *its commercialization
[15:16:20] Ilias Marmaras: media art is still a phenomenon of ''serre''
[15:16:24] annnnnnnnnne: yes i  like your first definition Daphne
[15:17:21] Ilias Marmaras: and what about the way that asian media artists see the internet art?
[15:17:30] Genco Gulan: our talk started to flow on the screen...as if the...stock market data
[15:17:33] annnnnnnnnne: the preservation of old art pieces on the internet is another problem.  unstorable because the browsers and technolgy has changed so much
[15:17:44] annnnnnnnnne: genco you should record some navigation
[15:17:46] Ilias Marmaras: dont you think that we should differenciate ?
[15:18:30] Daphne Dragona: but maybe net based art has an ephemeral character anyway like its medium... you can only document part of it for the future
[15:18:31] Genco Gulan: @anne: i dont like recording - if it is not a video or an animation
[15:18:34] annnnnnnnnne: i dot not know about these asian artists? what do they say
[15:19:02] Ilias Marmaras: well, there is a huge media art movement there mostly in china
[15:19:06] Genco Gulan: do you consider us Asian ;-)
[15:19:34] Genco Gulan: Marcus is on the Asian side...at Yeditepe
[15:19:37] Ilias Marmaras: i was following some discussions recently in emyre list and for them media arts are on stage
[15:19:43] annnnnnnnnne: i know nether do I , i always do things live but for an achive of what the internet looked like
[15:19:46] Ilias Marmaras: lol
[15:19:50] Ilias Marmaras: no genco
[15:19:59] Dr. Marcus Graf: Yes, this is so not Asian :)
[15:20:17] annnnnnnnnne: yes very ephemeral too the live arts on stage
[15:20:49] Ilias Marmaras: we should consider the different meanings that has internet in china
[15:21:03] Daphne Dragona: and the different barriers
[15:21:06] Ilias Marmaras: there is no one internet we face a balkanization issue
[15:21:44] Ilias Marmaras: we keep on seeing the net with the eyes of 90's as if still is ONE
[15:22:00] Ilias Marmaras: romanticism and techno utopian bullshits
[15:22:03] *** Genco Gulan, buraya deck adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[15:22:09] { D F }: Internet art can be divided into many subcategories. Eg. html art, form art, acii art, game art, activism, video  etc. What changes, I think, is the addition of the terms "network" and "community" into the inthernet art itself. Those new terms, one can say that are involved more, or will involve more in the future.
[15:22:15] Ilias Marmaras: xe xe welcome andy
[15:23:08] annnnnnnnnne: if chinese  cannot access to half of the content no doubt they have not seen subversive net based art projects like PICIDAE http://info.picidae.net/?PHPSESSID=5a0387bc02ff2e54f2f9f0a5b2c6c824/lang-pref/en/&PHPSESSID=5a0387bc02ff2e54f2f9f0a5b2c6c824
[15:23:26] { D F }: But, this is all about the medium. I still consider a simple gif animation with a political concept a great piece.
[15:23:44] Genco Gulan: Internet did changed certain things and it could not have changed many others...
[15:24:51] Daphne Dragona: internet still depends a lot on states unfortunately... you would not believe how many videos of you tube for instance i can not access in germany that i can access in greece
[15:25:06] Genco Gulan: I am glad that we can communicate here but without paying! our communication is limited.
[15:25:09] Daphne Dragona: info is never so free
[15:25:26] Ilias Marmaras: mmm what is the meaning of ''the state'' today?
[15:25:27] Andrej Tisma: Before, net-artists worked in their own network, isolated network, but today with all these social networks net-artiust's ambience changed, he now works and acts in the middle of huge global ambience.
[15:26:00] Daphne Dragona: huge ambiguous global ambience maybe
[15:26:13] Andrej Tisma: yes
[15:26:26] annnnnnnnnne: still not easy to identify these artists or to find places to promote their works
[15:26:31] Ilias Marmaras: there is not such a thing as ''global''
[15:26:37] Genco Gulan: Internet was more ours and now theirs?
[15:27:10] Daphne Dragona: mmm no
[15:27:17] Ilias Marmaras: there were never ''ours''
[15:27:22] Daphne Dragona: data was more ours and now has become theris
[15:27:27] Ilias Marmaras: who are we?
[15:27:37] deck: The tools
[15:27:48] Andrej Tisma: Net-art becomes part of ordinary population's network, not elitist one. It is now realized that art becomes part of everyday life.
[15:27:49] Ilias Marmaras: the digital mmultitude?
[15:28:00] Genco Gulan: Ilias have you seen this article: http://artefact.mi2.hr/_a04/lang_en/theory_gulan_en.htm
[15:28:06] Ilias Marmaras: the tools  mmm yes maybe
[15:28:18] Andrej Tisma: net-artist has a wider audience
[15:28:38] Ilias Marmaras: no genco but i will
[15:29:05] Genco Gulan: My students say they just chat and play games...
[15:29:31] Genco Gulan: if you do not go to a gallery in real life why should you search for art online?
[15:29:36] Ilias Marmaras: anyway me last years i am focused more and more on the hybrid forms of fusion  with emphasis to the uprising revolts and the role of sm in that
[15:30:02] Genco Gulan: @ ilias: nice
[15:30:22] Ilias Marmaras: net art , media art etc are terms that spread more  n more confusion
[15:30:59] Ilias Marmaras: december 2008 influenced a lot my point of view regarding some issues
[15:31:04] Andrej Tisma: I play online games (COD4) for years and my coleagues from games put my net-art onto their clan web page
[15:31:20] Genco Gulan: :)
[15:31:47] Genco Gulan: Maybe we should form a clan as well?
[15:31:52] Andrej Tisma: they like my net-art because it also deals with video games, I use sounds, images from games
[15:32:19] Ilias Marmaras: yes ''the aegean anti-frontex clan :)
[15:32:23] Genco Gulan: We developed a game together with Andy, "Age of Mythology the Ala Turca version"
[15:32:29] { D F }: Communities and networks can provide something very important into art: Collaboration.
[15:32:30] { D F }: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/oct/19/steven-johnson-good-ideas
[15:33:05] Ilias Marmaras: the conversation needs co-ordination (or maybe not)?
[15:33:23] Genco Gulan: collaboration is very important...that is the secret of WB as well
[15:33:38] Genco Gulan: OK ilias go on...
[15:33:47] Ilias Marmaras: collaboration or co operation?
[15:34:06] Ilias Marmaras: i am not sure if we need co ordination
[15:34:12] Ilias Marmaras: it was a question
[15:34:12] { D F }: the article mentions the term "collaboration"
[15:34:49] { D F }: however, the term co operation is not far from this concept
[15:34:54] Genco Gulan:  the "CO" part is important...also in my name...;)
[15:35:14] Daphne Dragona: (unfortunately i need to go for now. hope to find you all online later. ciao ciao )
[15:35:31] Andrej Tisma: :)
[15:35:33] Genco Gulan: i will be here waiting for you
[15:35:42] Ilias Marmaras: but if i had to put a question in this talk , it would be  something like: what the networks can do to promote revolts in physical spaces today
[15:36:13] Ilias Marmaras: go dap and spread the riots in berlin :)
[15:36:17] Genco Gulan: even anarchy may need to organise in some form...
[15:37:03] Andrej Tisma: there are many ways to express revolt in sociaty and articulate in on the net
[15:37:17] Andrej Tisma: and get support in life
[15:37:19] Ilias Marmaras: genco what u say is right but during the first days of december here in athens a friend told me: fuck the anarchists saw the chaos and they were scared to death''
[15:37:56] Ilias Marmaras: to a point this was dued to twitter
[15:38:06] Ilias Marmaras: and to sms
[15:38:15] Andrej Tisma: I know cases where groups on FB organized live demonstartion on streets with thousands of participants
[15:38:21] Genco Gulan: Kaos is a system
[15:38:23] deck: Net-art in mobil / mobilization is something I've been thinking about since Genco announced the topic, but now I'm finding it hard to keep up while typing with one thumb!
[15:38:42] Ilias Marmaras: why 1 thumb?
[15:39:02] { D F }: (he uses a mobile i  suppose)
[15:39:13] deck: "smart phone"
[15:39:14] Ilias Marmaras: i would put it ''chaos is a state of contingency''
[15:39:19] Genco Gulan: Keeping up is a problem with new media any way!
[15:39:20] Ilias Marmaras: aha
[15:39:25] Ilias Marmaras: gadjets
[15:39:29] Ilias Marmaras: g
[15:39:44] deck: Me and all the kiddies
[15:39:48] Andrej Tisma: mobile net it is not being online but inline
[15:39:59] Ilias Marmaras: oh u the americans  :)
[15:40:20] { D F }: mobile art: another subcategory of net.art that appeared with the entrance of smartphones
[15:40:48] { D F }: i know many iphone apps that are art pieces and only]
[15:40:49] deck: Bear in mind that it's early in the epicenter of economic pain
[15:40:53] Genco Gulan: Seslisozluk.com Türkiye'de bir süre erişime kapalı kalabileceği için aşağıdaki erişim adreslerini not ediniz Türkiye'den kesintisiz erişim için Seslisozluk.com alternatif erişim adresleri:
•http://www.seslisozluk.net
•http://174.123.216.18
•http://174.123.216.20
Not: Türkiye dışından seslisozluk.com adresine erişim kesintisiz devam edecektir.
[15:41:08] Ilias Marmaras: i think we do not need so many definitions but tactics and strategies
[15:41:23] Genco Gulan: Another problem: censorship!
[15:41:48] Ilias Marmaras: i thought that the economic pain centre was greece
[15:42:01] { D F }: Ilia, I agree with you. all the definitions is only about the medium
[15:42:13] Genco Gulan: The above text is from a dictioanary/ translator site. They may censor it here as well.
[15:43:03] Ilias Marmaras: dleuze used to say in 80's ''that we have a lot of communication more than needed  what we dont have is resistance
[15:43:35] Genco Gulan: I made a call for art about anti-censor but did not got much...
[15:43:52] deck: There is no category for resistance in the App Store.
[15:44:01] Genco Gulan: :)
[15:44:01] Ilias Marmaras: and what about self censorship?
[15:44:11] Ilias Marmaras: he he
[15:44:18] Genco Gulan: it is worse
[15:44:27] Ilias Marmaras: exactly
[15:45:00] deck: Not one for net-art either
[15:45:17] Ilias Marmaras: resistance and the networks then?
[15:45:32] Ilias Marmaras: networks of resistance?
[15:45:44] Andrej Tisma: net activism
[15:46:09] deck: @net-activism?
[15:46:10] Ilias Marmaras: net and street activism together
[15:46:34] Andrej Tisma: yes net and street merge
[15:46:45] Genco Gulan: removal el-kaida videos from youtube...
[15:47:09] Andrej Tisma: al-kaida is made by CIA
[15:47:43] Genco Gulan: i do not get any response even from Google, it is so clean
[15:48:16] Andrej Tisma: :)
[15:48:35] Ilias Marmaras: may i add something regarding the network structures?
[15:48:43] Genco Gulan: sure
[15:48:46] { D F }: We can take as examples, artworks from other areas of work. Like, sculpture or painting. Many cases of censorship applied everywhere. There is a website made by Antonio Muntadas (The File room) http://www.thefileroom.org/ that has a database that includes lots of cases
[15:48:59] Ilias Marmaras: its a small part of a recent talk i did in impakt
[15:49:06] deck: The Google is making more and more phones - or branding them. They are YouTube, the are bandwidth, they are the algorithm, the ranking, the Buzz
[15:49:41] Ilias Marmaras: he marvels of communication technology in the present have produced a false consciousness about the past—even a sense that communication has no history, or had nothing of importance to consider before the days of television and the Internet.

One study of the Red Brigades, the Italian terrorist group of the nineteen-seventies, found that seventy per cent of recruits had at least one good friend already in the organization. The same is true of the men who joined the mujahedeen in Afghanistan. Even revolutionary actions that look spontaneous, like the demonstrations in East Germany that led to the fall of the Berlin Wall, are, at core, strong-tie phenomena. The opposition movement in East Germany consisted of several hundred groups, each with roughly a dozen members. Each group was in limited contact with the others: at the time, only thirteen per cent of East Germans even had a phone. All they knew was that on Monday nights, outside St. Nicholas Church in downtown Leipzig, people gathered to voice their anger at the state. And the primary determinant of who showed up was “critical friends”—the more friends you had who were critical of the regime the more likely you were to join the protest.
[15:50:15] Ilias Marmaras: In other words, Facebook activism does not succeed in motivating people to make a real sacrifice but in motivating them to do the things that people do when they are not motivated enough to make a real sacrifice. Because networks don’t have a centralized leadership structure and clear lines of authority, they have real difficulty reaching consensus and setting goals. They can’t think strategically; they are chronically prone to conflict and error. How do you make difficult choices about tactics or strategy or philosophical direction when everyone has an equal say?
[15:50:24] Ilias Marmaras: sorry 4 the volume
[15:50:38] Ilias Marmaras: but i think it is essential
[15:51:08] Genco Gulan: ilias you are obviously not mobile ;)
[15:51:17] Ilias Marmaras: no
[15:51:18] { D F }: LOL
[15:51:33] Genco Gulan: if you are not they gonna get ya LOL
[15:51:35] { D F }: what is the source of that text?
[15:52:08] *** Genco Gulan gönderdi _am_an_ay_by_by_de_di_eh_el_en_ex_genco_go_ha_he_if_in_is_it_ki_Ku_la_li_ma_mi_na_no_nu_of_oh_om_on_or_os_ox_pe_pi_po_Ra_ri_Ro_so_ta_ti_to_uh_us_ve_we_ya_yo! son.png,... ***
[15:52:12] Ilias Marmaras: several analysis dimitri for network activism that i used in my talk
[15:52:29] { D F }: nice :)
[15:52:47] *** { D F } gönderdi _am_an_ay_by_by_de_di_eh_el_en_ex_genco_go_ha_he_if_in_is_it_ki_Ku_la_li_ma_mi_na_no_nu_of_oh_om_on_or_os_ox_pe_pi_po_Ra_ri_Ro_so_ta_ti_to_uh_us_ve_we_ya_yo! son.png ***
[15:53:19] Genco Gulan: a recent poem of mine, you need a phone to read it
[15:53:39] Ilias Marmaras: dimitri just sent it to me
[15:53:48] { D F }: thanx Genco :) qrcode art!
[15:55:20] deck: Speaking of censorship, the kids on campus here in the USA think they can say anything and they conclude there's no point
[15:55:42] Genco Gulan: For example I showed this on FB but I do not call it FB art. But it is a different web...
[15:55:58] Ilias Marmaras: there is no piont to say it?
[15:56:37] Andrej Tisma: so what is the point of the lives
[15:56:48] Andrej Tisma: *their
[15:56:55] deck: A lot of apathy and not much resistance. Net used for diversion
[15:57:11] Genco Gulan: @ deck: a feeling of freedom when there is none!
[15:57:22] Andrej Tisma: ah I see too much video games and porn
[15:57:24] Ilias Marmaras: you should do a molotov workshop
[15:58:28] deck: I'll add it to the course catalog ili
[15:58:41] Genco Gulan: What about tech. cencorship: the browsers are asking permission without doing anything.
[15:58:53] Ilias Marmaras: u may invite experts from exarcheia sq
[15:58:55] Ilias Marmaras: :)
[15:59:27] Andrej Tisma: it is like Titanc sinking and pasangers dancing
[15:59:42] Andrej Tisma: *Titanic
[16:00:07] Ilias Marmaras: passangers are looting not dancing i think
[16:00:17] Andrej Tisma: lol
[16:00:23] Genco Gulan: Many of my recent work are on sinking...
[16:00:36] deck: Looting or looking for jobs
[16:00:44] Ilias Marmaras: yes i saw this video on the immigrants
[16:01:07] Ilias Marmaras: better a blowjob than a no job :)
[16:02:32] Genco Gulan: Looking for looting!
[16:03:18] deck: Wasn't the Great Depression supposed to be the Depression to end all depressions?
[16:03:38] Genco Gulan: I am having some beans now, hope i can serve it to you in the future...
[16:04:04] *** Ilias Marmaras gönderdi countdown-2-combat.jpg ***
[16:04:58] Ilias Marmaras: yes it was but i think is still running
[16:06:15] { D F }: Lets say one organizes an activism work against FB. There are cases that such activism can succeed. I believe it can succed even using Facebook against Facebook itself. Of course, there should always be a support website, but the main work can be done within the target. If you take a look at the ®TMark website (http://www.rtmark.com), you will realize that there are many tacticks that one can use to succeed.
[16:06:27] deck: I raise the economy as an issue because it's something that has dramatically altered the scene surrounding net-art
[16:07:23] Genco Gulan: @ deck: gadget are expensive and this sure is a barrier.
[16:07:38] Ilias Marmaras: can u tell some more about this andy? i mean how altered the scene surrounding net-art?
[16:07:58] Genco Gulan: @ DF: What about windows? it is no more PC it became WC
[16:08:22] { D F }: LOL
[16:08:37] { D F }: WC yes Genco!
[16:08:44] deck: I see people who were more active making online art but who are now working more and getting less free / easy opportunities.  The sense of community has eroded in response, I think.
[16:10:35] Ilias Marmaras: @andy maybe is true but on the other side unemployed people maybe they have their chance to do what they couldn't do because of their occupations
[16:12:32] deck: Perhaps, yes.  But don't the conditions today demand (to intervene in Facebook for example) demand more than a casual engagement?  How does sustained resistance happen when the electric bill hasn't been paid?
[16:13:33] Ilias Marmaras: by the creation of common space where the bill is either paid by many or -even better -it is not paid at all by disobedience
[16:13:46] Genco Gulan: FB gives me space for self expression: but only couple of sentence.
[16:13:47] Ilias Marmaras: in athens these things are more and more often
[16:14:10] deck: I see - like "No Impact Man"...
[16:14:22] Ilias Marmaras: means?
[16:15:21] deck: http://noimpactproject.org/movie/
[16:16:41] { D F }: @deck thanx andy :)
[16:18:49] Ilias Marmaras: in recent regional and municipal elections in greece the disobedient voters that didn't go to vote were the 50% . That points toward the possibilities of a different form of organisation and affects a lot the way that people are using media
[16:19:09] Ilias Marmaras: of course nothing is certain
[16:19:10] Genco Gulan: % 14.8 is the percantage of unpaid electrcity in TR. In south east the rate goes up to
[16:20:07] Genco Gulan: Mardin % 79.2, % Şırnak 74.2, Batman% 65.42- by the way wh ahve a city called Batman really...
[16:20:55] Ilias Marmaras: these cases genco could be turned to net projects
[16:21:04] Genco Gulan: sure
[16:21:20] Ilias Marmaras: at least as a thing between greece and turkey
[16:22:12] Andrej Tisma: back in 90s I did electronic art with 4 to 6 hours daily cuts of electricity
[16:22:29] Andrej Tisma: :)
[16:22:36] Ilias Marmaras: true
[16:22:46] { D F }: cool Andrej :)
[16:22:50] Genco Gulan: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=740186269#!/video/video.php?v=157951564246255
[16:23:18] Genco Gulan: Zorba final cut!
[16:23:19] Andrej Tisma: and I made a web work out of that - Electronic Art in Serbia 2000
[16:23:37] deck: Maybe I'm mis-identifying the problem.  In US (and on US campuses) there's too much electricity.
[16:23:59] Andrej Tisma: http://www.atisma.com/webart/cut/cut.htm
[16:24:48] { D F }: very nice Andrej! :)
[16:25:18] Andrej Tisma: and actually the Museum of Modern Art in Novi Sad comissioned that work foir their permanent collection
[16:25:24] Andrej Tisma: lol
[16:25:32] Ilias Marmaras: better doing web art without electricity than without wine
[16:25:42] Andrej Tisma: what an absourd
[16:27:45] Andrej Tisma: Dear friends it was great pleasure meeting you
[16:27:59] Andrej Tisma: I got to leave now
[16:28:08] Genco Gulan: art needs balls not electricty
[16:28:18] Andrej Tisma: twill follow the discussion result later
[16:28:25] Ilias Marmaras: ok andrej glad to talk with you again
[16:28:39] Andrej Tisma: have a nice time
[16:28:46] Ilias Marmaras: u2
[16:28:50] { D F }: Bye Andrej :)
[16:28:53] Andrej Tisma: untill next opportunity
[16:28:57] Andrej Tisma: bye
[16:29:00] deck: bye
[16:29:21] Genco Gulan: çömnbvcxzsdddffghjklşi,üğpoıuytrrrreeeewww23455678790üb by Nisan SU
[16:30:34] deck: Genco, you mentioned that FB gives you a space for expression.  How is this related to the writerly freedoms anticipated in early-90s thinking about hypertext?
[16:31:14] deck: It seems to me that I'm being manipulated by an invisible hand when I use that type of 'space'
[16:31:19] Genco Gulan: it is about the audiance as well...
[16:31:46] { D F }: @deck I agree with you
[16:32:31] deck: ...Or when that type of 'space' uses me....
[16:32:32] Genco Gulan: For example at the moment I wrote: you can not censor seslisozluk.com on fb, and will tweet it in a second...
[16:34:31] Ilias Marmaras: of course it uses the users there is ''architecture of participation''
[16:35:08] Genco Gulan:
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██
[16:35:18] deck: How can you tear down wall in that space without boycotting it?
[16:35:21] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Tim Hailey adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[16:35:38] { D F }: However, there is a key-point on Facebook that makes it's success: Identity requirement. Facebook wants to know our identities as if it is a Bank.
[16:36:46] deck: Yes, I was surprised by how they used my linkage with an @artcontext twitter account to extract my name, which I had not given them before.
[16:36:54] Genco Gulan: we used to be anonymus online
[16:37:28] Ilias Marmaras: we are not anymore genco but we can be alteronymus
[16:38:05] Ilias Marmaras: this takes the effort to create other types of networks
[16:38:45] Genco Gulan:  <<< alteronymus
[16:39:28] Tim Hailey: so you can't hear me eh?
[16:39:36] Tim Hailey: I just did
[16:39:41] Tim Hailey: good morning
[16:39:52] Ilias Marmaras: hi Tim
[16:40:00] Tim Hailey: hi everyone
[16:40:28] Genco Gulan: good morning tim, actually it is becoming nigh in istanbul like 1001 nights tales...
[16:40:38] deck: Hi Tim,  Net-art and Internet, is it the same?
[16:40:43] Tim Hailey: yes, I know
[16:40:58] Tim Hailey: let me get warmed up here, just waking
[16:41:06] Tim Hailey: very late flight last night
[16:42:05] Tim Hailey: off hand I would say no, but I'm sure someone could convince me that it is....
[16:42:25] deck: But who will be Scheherazade?
[16:42:41] Tim Hailey: Genco of course
[16:43:20] { D F }: Identity has been the keyword for lots of artworks. When the identity is hidden, one can change gender, country, believes etc. , in other words, hings that are sometimes are required by art. Limiting the possibility of a hidden identity is like limiting the possibility af art creation.
[16:44:15] Genco Gulan: üğpoıyutttttttttntttrewwwwwwwww*0987654bvcx xzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz<3işl by Nisan SU
[16:45:00] Genco Gulan: [16:42] deck:

<<< Scheherazadewhere are you?
[16:45:17] deck: "We are driven!" -- Datsun
[16:45:34] Tim Hailey: I like that
[16:45:47] Tim Hailey: Nissan
[16:45:57] Tim Hailey: Genco's daughter
[16:46:06] Tim Hailey: she's a Pathfinder
[16:47:06] deck: Well now her identity is blown.
[16:47:22] Genco Gulan: identity slows down...
[16:47:36] { D F }: LOL
[16:48:45] Genco Gulan: Andy you remember Tim?
[16:48:59] Tim Hailey: Genco and I visited your apartment
[16:49:04] deck: Yes, sure.
[16:49:04] Genco Gulan: she became a suicide bomber
[16:49:11] Tim Hailey: I dropped him off to give a lecture
[16:49:19] Genco Gulan: at SVA
[16:49:44] Tim Hailey: Genco, your keyboard sounds like it is from the '80s
[16:50:44] Genco Gulan: you microwaved us some coffee
[16:51:22] Genco Gulan: should we consider microwave new media DF?
[16:51:26] deck: Ah, yes, back when the Internet was the Internet and coffee was microwaved.
[16:51:37] { D F }: LOL no!
[16:52:09] { D F }: but we should consider new media everything that can join a network
[16:52:30] deck: Sun invented Java so it could get toasters to communicate on the Internet....
[16:52:42] Genco Gulan: :)
[16:52:49] { D F }: OK!
[16:53:06] deck: And they failed (so far)
[16:55:02] Ilias Marmaras: παιντινγ ψαν βε νες μεδια ασ ςελλ
[16:55:21] Ilias Marmaras: sorry i ment : painting can be new media as well
[16:55:47] deck: Especially for those who have never painted before
[16:55:53] Tim Hailey: hahaha
[16:55:57] { D F }: LOL
[16:56:03] Genco Gulan: boyama psan BGL PM Ness medya satmak
[16:56:22] Genco Gulan: that is the google tarnslation
[16:56:26] Ilias Marmaras: exactly most media artist never did
[16:57:06] Genco Gulan: 畫 列弗下午內斯媒體出售 Chinese translation Tim
[16:57:15] Tim Hailey: wow, thanks
[16:57:19] Tim Hailey: now I see
[16:58:36] deck: One thing that has changed for me, with respect to Net-Art and Now, is that I feel compelled to make things that are involved, that have a marketing concept built in, etc.  When I make small experiments I don't really bother to put them up on my website in the same way I used to.
[16:59:28] Tim Hailey: marketing concept as a media strategy?
[16:59:38] deck: That's what I mean, too.
[16:59:51] Tim Hailey: still not enough artists using marketing as a media yet
[17:00:05] Genco Gulan: this morning i went to Bogaziçi University Molecular Biology and Genetics department...
[17:00:08] Tim Hailey: it totally makes sense to do so
[17:00:12] Ilias Marmaras: i would ask 4 some more on marketing concept
[17:00:56] { D F }: @Tim those artists who used marketing had already succeed
[17:01:16] deck: Finding an audience.  It's not a given the way it was 15 years ago.  Before you put the words "random greatness" next to each other and people would arrive via Altavista.
[17:01:32] Genco Gulan: to start a project GFB fish
[17:01:35] Tim Hailey: I don't mean marketing themselves, of course, I mean using marketing as a medium
[17:01:40] { D F }: or you mean... use marketing as a concept for an artwork and not as a servive?
[17:01:46] { D F }: ok
[17:02:57] Ilias Marmaras: marketing though is based on sustainability something that an artist can not quarantee
[17:03:04] Genco Gulan: i made a net-art piece "bannerland" out of MSN adds. As they changed their technology my work disappeared totally.
[17:03:18] Tim Hailey: haha, that's funny
[17:03:23] { D F }: I ve seen that Genco :)
[17:03:23] Ilias Marmaras: there is a contradiction well known since the late 70's
[17:03:54] Genco Gulan: i am going to make a fish that carries my genetic info,
[17:04:33] Genco Gulan: than i  will show it to my brother and say: it is your new sister...
[17:04:43] Tim Hailey: haha
[17:04:47] deck: I think BP already did that with their genetic 'info'
[17:04:48] Genco Gulan: LOL
[17:04:56] Tim Hailey: kiss your new sister Guclu
[17:05:07] Ilias Marmaras: doing it with a calamar would that be better maybe genco?
[17:05:09] { D F }: When I used marketing strategies for an old work of mine (net.art), I saw myself arrested...  (whew)
[17:05:09] Tim Hailey: haha, BP
[17:05:11] Genco Gulan: I <3 BP
[17:05:21] Tim Hailey: Matchlight shrimp and oysters
[17:05:28] Genco Gulan: aha yes
[17:05:34] Tim Hailey: cook in their own oil
[17:05:45] Tim Hailey: for that fresh Gulf fllavor
[17:05:54] deck: Mmmmm
[17:05:56] Tim Hailey: Po-Boys at every station
[17:07:06] Genco Gulan: jtwinedotcom
@jtwinedotcom jtwinedotcom
█ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ █ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██
[17:07:35] Genco Gulan: is this web art ort twitter art?
[17:08:19] Genco Gulan: He is an artist.
[17:08:22] deck: Art Against Twitteracy!
[17:08:49] Genco Gulan: Maybe, maybe not...and i assume he is a he...maybe he is a she?
[17:08:55] { D F }: could be both i think... we only say twitter as this is the only grafics that are allowed...
[17:09:57] Genco Gulan: DF tell us more about your arrest
[17:11:00] Tim Hailey: for art or being a badboy?
[17:11:10] { D F }: I used "keyword submission" software to submit my work to lots of search engines. that made my site come up before everything else as one typed the keywords. The site was a critique to both google results and the political situation in greece at that time
[17:11:59] Tim Hailey: and you got arrested for that?
[17:12:13] { D F }: the keywords that one could type and come to me was.... "job", "find a job", "jobs in the public sector" etc
[17:13:04] Ilias Marmaras: if i may add something on the case of dimitris i think he was arrested as well because the new' -then- brigade of electronic crime  needed ''hits''
[17:13:18] { D F }: here is the site: http://dirtyworks-greece.info/
[17:13:35] { D F }: see the archived page: http://web.archive.org/web/20050203031249/http://www.dirtyworks-greece.info/
[17:13:59] Tim Hailey: they needed to justify their budget, of course
[17:14:01] { D F }: (I only owe it right now.)
[17:14:02] deck: There are lots of men in black vans in NYC trying to justify their paychecks similarly -- harrassing tourist photographers, etc.
[17:14:06] Ilias Marmaras: yeah
[17:14:08] Ilias Marmaras: yeah
[17:14:56] { D F }: so... I was arrested beacuse I was accused for stealling money trough the included payment form
[17:15:02] Tim Hailey: my van is blue and silver and my paychecks are few....
[17:15:25] Tim Hailey: ah, I see, so they thought you were a con man rather than a subversive
[17:15:29] { D F }: wich never worked of course (it was a fake form)
[17:15:52] deck: The electronic crime division couldn't tell the difference between a form that works and one that doesn't?
[17:16:09] { D F }: that is exactly what they DIDN'T
[17:16:15] Genco Gulan: i am not good with forms or norms
[17:16:25] Tim Hailey: which is more an artist? the con man or the subversive?
[17:16:29] Ilias Marmaras: that is exactly what they wanted to obscure
[17:16:41] { D F }: so... here we can speak about sencorship. again
[17:17:42] deck: I think there are not so many con men with a good message
[17:18:16] Tim Hailey: I imagine you are right
[17:18:19] { D F }: but my site was not only about greece. it was about google itself as well. Imagine a person (search engine Pro man) who submits anything he/she wants and comes up with the best result
[17:18:29] Tim Hailey: the Yes Men are both, perhaps
[17:19:02] Genco Gulan: Mr. NO was my hero in my childhood...
[17:19:08] { D F }: that means...that the results provided by google...are not necessary the result that we want for our serches
[17:19:14] { D F }: *searches
[17:19:43] deck: Not at all, that's true.
[17:19:52] { D F }: :)
[17:21:03] Genco Gulan: Lets talk about WB. How was your experience, expectations...
[17:21:24] Genco Gulan: Any proposals for future?
[17:21:34] Genco Gulan: How was the screening in Athens?
[17:21:37] Ilias Marmaras: more focused projects
[17:21:53] deck: Keep it going.  It should be huge -- bigger than the bricks
[17:22:19] Genco Gulan: Focusing is always a problem..
[17:22:22] { D F }: It is unique Genco! It should grow more!
[17:22:25] Ilias Marmaras: we do not need so much ironic projects ''in general'' or ''abstract ones'' we need projects that take positions
[17:23:17] deck: Speaking of WB and Google.  http://getpeaceful.org/antiWar404/
[17:23:29] Ilias Marmaras: focusing is less a problem when you act at the ''physical world'' lets take ideas from there
[17:23:31] deck: The movement that Google forgot...
[17:24:19] { D F }: Great Andy :)
[17:24:19] Ilias Marmaras: why ? you were expected google to remember it?
[17:24:56] deck: It's not so much that Google is failing, just that I think people lose sight of things by reliance on the latest search results.
[17:25:40] Ilias Marmaras: anyway 4 me internet must  be downloaded to earth .. it suffers from a kind of elevation ''to the air'' illness
[17:26:22] Ilias Marmaras: we should put stones in the internet's pockets
[17:26:28] Tim Hailey: haha
[17:26:33] Tim Hailey: ballast
[17:26:33] { D F }: LOL
[17:26:56] Tim Hailey: put a dye in it and make it visible
[17:26:59] deck: The anti-war marches in the 2006 era were certainly weighed down, like everyone had stones in their pockets.
[17:27:18] Genco Gulan: the internet and new media is compos4ed of companies and we should clerify this:
[17:27:23] { D F }: but the "air" is not exactly "air"... it is payed/compatible services
[17:27:24] Genco Gulan: art is not apple.
[17:27:32] Genco Gulan: pc is not windows.
[17:27:33] { D F }: and finally...computers
[17:27:45] Genco Gulan: internet is not google...
[17:27:48] Ilias Marmaras: can be burned in protests
[17:27:55] Genco Gulan: social is not fb...etc
[17:28:29] Tim Hailey: let us all pause and thank the porni industry for the continuing development of the internet
[17:28:38] Tim Hailey: porn, I mean....
[17:28:45] Ilias Marmaras: and politics is not about ''sociality'' as the current euro tendencies in the north are trying to convince us
[17:28:50] Genco Gulan: cool is not ipad, it is the lily apt ;)
[17:28:53] deck: Tell me more about these developments. Did I miss something?
[17:29:11] Tim Hailey: infrastructure...
[17:29:13] Ilias Marmaras: @are you asking me?
[17:29:18] Ilias Marmaras: andy?
[17:29:26] { D F }: Porn.com Sells for $9 Million
[17:29:44] Genco Gulan: porn sells
[17:29:46] Tim Hailey: I know, a big blow to my savings....
[17:29:50] deck: I'm curious what infrastructure the porn industry has contributed that we should be thankful for....
[17:30:23] Tim Hailey: probably the ability to see Genco so clearly on my Skype
[17:30:40] Genco Gulan: it attract people to the internet
[17:31:02] deck: Hmm.  Well, I think it's true that the internet is "better" but the behavior patterns are perhaps less interesting, too
[17:31:05] Tim Hailey: too clearly, it seems...
[17:31:31] { D F }: http://www.blazinggrace.org/cms/bg/pornstats
[17:31:57] { D F }: it is all about busness
[17:32:13] Tim Hailey: porn is not the smartest kid on the block, but delivers smooth video
[17:33:28] Ilias Marmaras: but still we do not have a social porn opera guys  :)
[17:33:30] Genco Gulan: what about making an Arttube.com
[17:33:51] deck: Blazing Grace is run by a guy who says he struggled with 'sex addiction.'
[17:34:00] Tim Hailey: a social porn opera sounds awesome
[17:34:21] Tim Hailey: sex addiction is the way of nature, no?
[17:34:33] Tim Hailey: aren't we hardwired for that?
[17:34:57] Ilias Marmaras: there is no such a thing as nature  :)
[17:35:08] deck: [He] "started with the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue."
[17:35:14] Tim Hailey: ah, now we're onto something!
[17:35:19] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Franck Ancel adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[17:35:30] Tim Hailey: is there "nature" online?
[17:35:32] Genco Gulan: Bonjour Franck
[17:35:43] Ilias Marmaras: neither offline
[17:35:48] Tim Hailey: is there a way of nature about the internet?
[17:35:59] deck: Here art problems. There art confusion.
[17:36:00] { D F }: Hi Franck :)
[17:36:03] Tim Hailey: does theriver want to change course?
[17:36:24] Ilias Marmaras: in the opposite   online culture obscured and retrograde the prejudices and the stereotypes regarding nature
[17:36:52] Tim Hailey: is the river of the internet being held to it's present course by dams and floodwalls?
[17:36:58] Ilias Marmaras: if i am not wrong at this moment the ''tea parties'' in us are evoking ''nature'' no?
[17:37:00] deck: The 'wild' has become a second tier pornography
[17:37:29] deck: @ilias, I'm trying not to 'listen' to the Tea Party
[17:37:58] Tim Hailey: they are not natural
[17:38:13] deck: They are marketing!
[17:38:21] Tim Hailey: indeed
[17:38:31] Tim Hailey: relentlessly
[17:38:54] Tim Hailey: a simple, stupid message repeated over and over again
[17:39:13] Tim Hailey: it sells
[17:39:30] Ilias Marmaras: i know but still people are digging on their stereotypes that include ''nature''
[17:40:32] Ilias Marmaras: and very often i faced terms as ''the nature of the internet''
[17:40:43] Ilias Marmaras: in serious analysis
[17:40:49] Genco Gulan: Paul McCarthy's The Garden show how the humans are f*cking the nature...
[17:40:54] Tim Hailey: a very narrow definition of nature that the teabaggers offer
[17:41:00] Ilias Marmaras: the nature of the internet   sorry    mon cul
[17:41:56] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Lanfranco adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[17:42:28] Tim Hailey: buenas  noches
[17:42:36] Genco Gulan: Lanfranco buenes noches
[17:44:29] Ilias Marmaras: bonsoir
[17:45:49] Genco Gulan: Hey man, this chat is like a marathon!
[17:45:51] Lanfranco: Hi guys
[17:45:53] Lanfranco: :)
[17:46:02] *** Konferans çağrısı ***
[17:47:28] Tim Hailey: now we are a cacaphony
[17:48:43] Lanfranco: ok
[17:48:52] Genco Gulan: Lets go back to the written chat
[17:49:14] Lanfranco: Buona sera
[17:49:15] Lanfranco: :)
[17:49:26] Tim Hailey: Louie Prima
[17:49:26] { D F }: (save every 10-15 min ;) )
[17:49:44] Genco Gulan: OK i did 25 pages at the moment
[17:49:58] { D F }: great
[17:50:20] Lanfranco: 14 to 21 september 2011
[17:50:23] Lanfranco: Istanbul
[17:50:32] Genco Gulan: ISEA in ıstanbul next year
[17:50:39] Lanfranco: and we would like to work with Genco as well :)
[17:50:54] Genco Gulan: sure of course my pleaseure...
[17:50:59] Tim Hailey: Genco is fun to work with
[17:51:11] Lanfranco: I know Guna has told me that
[17:51:29] Genco Gulan: Tim as well he will be in Quatar, special training in...
[17:51:42] Genco Gulan: molotofs?
[17:51:49] Lanfranco: oh wow :)
[17:51:49] Tim Hailey: Qatar this winter
[17:51:59] Tim Hailey: I will be at thye drag races
[17:52:10] Lanfranco: Qatar is not a bad place in the winter...
[17:52:10] Ilias Marmaras: greek molotofs are the best in case that u are interested
[17:52:18] Tim Hailey: haha
[17:52:47] Tim Hailey: better than Indiana, I'm imagining
[17:53:00] Lanfranco: so guys what were the comments
[17:53:10] Franck Ancel: Hello from south of France
[17:53:12] Lanfranco: my day is gone pear shaped today
[17:53:13] Genco Gulan: A Day at the Races by Queen
[17:53:22] Lanfranco: and could not join before...
[17:53:24] Julie Upmeyer: good song
[17:53:40] Tim Hailey: Franck you are just rubbing it in
[17:53:45] Genco Gulan: Hello Julie common ca va?
[17:53:57] Ilias Marmaras: bonsoir
[17:54:04] Julie Upmeyer: been half listening, half doing 8 other things... sorry everyone, busy day
[17:54:13] Lanfranco: ok
[17:54:18] Lanfranco: good to know...
[17:54:21] Julie Upmeyer: :)
[17:54:45] Lanfranco: I will keep on writing
[17:54:52] Genco Gulan: SKYPE supports 1 video 2 or 3 sounds multiple text, the free verison...
[17:55:17] Tim Hailey: will someone make me a sandwich?
[17:55:18] Julie Upmeyer: i've done conference call with up to 10.  above that doesn't work so well
[17:55:24] Genco Gulan: Last one hour to go...
[17:55:40] Lanfranco: I have to say that at times the internet feels a bit of disjointed activity but a serendipitous one with multiple comments layering like in this chat
[17:55:48] Genco Gulan: @ julie. really?
[17:56:01] Julie Upmeyer: bread, whole grain mustard, gouda cheese, pastrami, rouccula, pepper paste, bread
[17:56:02] Lanfranco: which is what makes it interesting by association and chaotic confusion...
[17:56:11] Tim Hailey: You are right Lanfranco
[17:56:11] Julie Upmeyer: yes, I use it for one of my jobs
[17:56:16] Julie Upmeyer: we use it for our conference calls
[17:56:20] Lanfranco: Is it that we like it because we are Mediterranean? :)
[17:56:28] Julie Upmeyer: with regular phones in too. calling in
[17:56:29] Genco Gulan: MS. virtual chef!
[17:56:32] Julie Upmeyer: or rather us caling them
[17:56:40] Tim Hailey: oh Julie, i like the way you speak...
[17:56:44] Julie Upmeyer: yes :)   well the man asked for a sandwich, I did the best I could
[17:56:47] Tim Hailey: you are making me hungry
[17:56:55] Genco Gulan: LOL
[17:56:59] Lanfranco: LOL
[17:57:00] Julie Upmeyer: tim, usually I do better www.virtual-chef.net
[17:57:12] Julie Upmeyer: but the situation is so
[17:57:16] Genco Gulan: she is great - cook i mean
[17:57:16] Tim Hailey: you are a professional!
[17:57:30] Lanfranco: Julie we have to meet and share recipes :)
[17:58:00] Julie Upmeyer: where are you?  I know we are facebook friends, but have we met?
[17:58:06] Lanfranco: http://www.isea2011istanbul.org
[17:58:20] Genco Gulan: He is far away in Tuzla
[17:58:25] Julie Upmeyer: ah
[17:58:33] Lanfranco: a while ago and I think you also met John Curtis a friend of mine from Detroit
[17:58:39] Genco Gulan: it is the Sabanci Land
[17:58:42] Tim Hailey: Detroit!
[17:58:46] Julie Upmeyer: detroit!
[17:58:54] Genco Gulan: detroit?
[17:58:54] deck: Almost my home, too.
[17:59:01] Tim Hailey: Detroit is off the hook!
[17:59:02] Julie Upmeyer: I"ll be there in a month :) :)
[17:59:07] Tim Hailey: so much going on there
[17:59:09] Genco Gulan: country Rose, take me home
[17:59:16] Lanfranco: Really... I love going back there...
[17:59:24] Julie Upmeyer: me too.  are you from there?
[17:59:31] Lanfranco: and things are always a bit complicated...
[17:59:34] Tim Hailey: I'm involved withn a co-op gallery there
[17:59:40] Lanfranco: my husband is from there ;)
[17:59:41] Tim Hailey: Public Pool
[17:59:44] deck: I'm from the middle of the hand
[17:59:50] Julie Upmeyer: ahh ok.
[18:00:01] Julie Upmeyer: wow. so many michiganders in one place,  I'm getting clostrophobic
[18:00:06] Julie Upmeyer: sorry I can't spell
[18:00:07] Tim Hailey: haha
[18:00:37] Genco Gulan: ISEA where did you find the money from?
[18:00:42] deck: What sort of things are making Detroit so different, so appealing?
[18:01:01] Tim Hailey: it is cheap and drawing artists and people from all over the world
[18:01:09] Julie Upmeyer: cheap?  urban gardens? I don't know. I only hear about it from my mother
[18:01:11] Ilias Marmaras: the fishes in the lake
[18:01:14] Tim Hailey: so international, so cheap
[18:01:16] Genco Gulan: I try to bring ISEA to Istanbul but my partners they did not kept their promises.
[18:01:27] Lanfranco: had to sell everything and as I say to my students
[18:01:42] Ilias Marmaras: ISEA is not such a big deal as far as my experience say
[18:01:43] Lanfranco: I had to resolve to prostitution like pedro almodovar
[18:01:44] Tim Hailey: artists working in so many different experimental ways there
[18:01:49] Tim Hailey: haha
[18:01:54] Ilias Marmaras: Daphne could say a lot on this
[18:01:54] Julie Upmeyer: sorry. I didn't get from the website,  in a nutshell what is it?
[18:02:10] Genco Gulan: it is media arts in a nutshell
[18:02:28] Ilias Marmaras: that ask u to pay 4 everything
[18:02:45] Lanfranco: guys I have to leave for a moment
[18:02:53] Julie Upmeyer: ohh ok I see a better overview on the call fop papers part
[18:02:58] Tim Hailey: bring back sandwiches
[18:03:01] Genco Gulan: sure keep in touch
[18:03:25] Franck Ancel: Hello Genco from my iPhone on a train
[18:03:37] Julie Upmeyer: great train!
[18:03:44] Tim Hailey: Franck is rubbing it in again
[18:03:55] Genco Gulan: Franck is going to Souther France - in a bullet train?
[18:04:03] Tim Hailey: on a train...in the Soth of France...
[18:04:07] Ilias Marmaras: in a i-bullet
[18:04:22] Franck Ancel: Yes Tim
[18:04:24] deck: That's mobile computing
[18:04:25] Genco Gulan: i-bullet.com
[18:04:30] Tim Hailey: no doubt drinking a glass of wine and enjoying fine frommage
[18:04:43] Franck Ancel: :)
[18:04:45] Genco Gulan: and the french kiss
[18:04:53] Tim Hailey: oo lala
[18:04:57] Ilias Marmaras: what are you drinking i have a greek cabernet here
[18:04:57] Julie Upmeyer: is thie ISEA all held at Sabanci or open to things around the city?
[18:05:16] Tim Hailey: I'm still on coffee in Indiana
[18:05:22] Genco Gulan: Sabancı rules
[18:05:35] { D F }: imagine the day that skype will offer "teleport"
[18:05:38] { D F }: haha
[18:05:40] Julie Upmeyer: a stupid beer
[18:05:42] Ilias Marmaras: is ISEA will address the issue of FRONTEX at the greek-turkish borders at least?
[18:05:49] Genco Gulan: Turkish tea
[18:06:28] Genco Gulan: they are trying to make that FRONTEX virtual as well.
[18:06:32] deck: The World's Longest Beverage Menu?
[18:06:52] Ilias Marmaras: 4 the moment is not virtual but filthy
[18:06:52] Genco Gulan: is virtuality a way of getting rid of artists?
[18:07:03] Ilias Marmaras: aha
[18:07:52] deck: I feel like the earlier moment of textual-focused interaction was less encumbered than the new, visual virtuality.
[18:08:07] Julie Upmeyer: border security. hm.
[18:08:14] Tim Hailey: less distracting
[18:08:14] { D F }: getting rid of our physical presence. they only want the work
[18:08:32] Franck Ancel: See a video from train now o
[18:08:46] Tim Hailey: visual virtuality, so full of porn....
[18:08:53] { D F }: haha
[18:09:11] Genco Gulan: arbeit macht frei
[18:09:20] Franck Ancel: On my franckancel.Tumblr.com
[18:09:36] Ilias Marmaras: ne travaillez jamais
[18:10:00] deck: I liked that phrase Ilias (?) used -- 'social architecture' -- to describe the constraints of social networking systems.
[18:10:13] Franck Ancel: Stop The Radio Activity from my train ;)
[18:10:41] { D F }: Nice Franck :)
[18:10:41] Ilias Marmaras: Stop The Radio Activity from my train ;)    again an issue of molotovs
[18:11:01] Tim Hailey: is virtual social netwoking more or less constrained than physical?
[18:11:05] Ilias Marmaras: il faut faire peur au pouvoir
[18:11:21] Ilias Marmaras: yes it is in my opinion
[18:11:23] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Andreas Jacobs adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[18:11:26] deck: Differently constrained, to be sure.
[18:11:42] Ilias Marmaras: yes andy i agree but still.....
[18:11:56] Tim Hailey: in some ways yes but other ways no
[18:12:21] Tim Hailey: we are having this conversation only because virtual social networking allows us to
[18:12:35] Julie Upmeyer: and we're all used to it
[18:12:43] Julie Upmeyer: seems normal to me to be chatting with 10 odd people here
[18:12:49] Tim Hailey: otherwise, I'd be talking to some Indiana schmuck at the diner
[18:12:50] Genco Gulan:
Andreas is with us!
[18:12:56] Andreas Jacobs: Is skype social metworking?
[18:13:17] Julie Upmeyer: I think yes, in a way. it allows us to play out our socail networks in convenient ways
[18:13:22] Tim Hailey: seems to be working that way right now
[18:13:24] Julie Upmeyer: a tool to make them real
[18:13:32] Genco Gulan: Well, we are trying to network but i am not sure about the social part.
[18:13:34] Tim Hailey: I've only met 2 of you "in person"
[18:13:45] Julie Upmeyer: just having address in your address book is one thing, but then to have access is another
[18:14:12] Andreas Jacobs: The old telcos were aldo able doing that, i think we just use vurrent tech and that is not that special
[18:14:13] Genco Gulan: Tim, you should really meet with Julie :)
[18:14:20] Julie Upmeyer: well, Tim, when we do meet, we'll have a shared experience and we can start from a better place
[18:14:20] Ilias Marmaras: and having ''an act'' another too
[18:14:39] Julie Upmeyer: where are you tim?
[18:15:06] Genco Gulan: he is lost
[18:15:15] Andreas Jacobs: Internet @ art?
[18:15:31] Tim Hailey: and make sanwiches together
[18:15:47] Tim Hailey: I was having a bathroom break, if you must know
[18:16:00] Genco Gulan: @ Andreas: At the end we will have a text and that is sth.
[18:16:20] Andreas Jacobs: Or social actscand politics over the iwire, what is the effectivness?
[18:17:29] { D F }: it can be effective
[18:17:42] Tim Hailey: it seems that it is
[18:17:48] Andreas Jacobs: What kind of text? A statement , some social nonsense? or a political manifesto what are we up to?
[18:17:55] *** Franck Ancel ayrıldı ***
[18:18:01] Ilias Marmaras: i insist that we should apply these kinds of meetings to speific demands in real spaces
[18:18:05] Julie Upmeyer: ok Tim, I've googled you.   you are www.timhaileyworld.com   return to the battle of the ironclads    eat my ink - champs win big at the The Rock   and software quality engineer at Zephyrt Associates
[18:18:08] Tim Hailey: oh oh, Franck has entered a tunnel
[18:18:10] Genco Gulan: this is a temporary autonomous zone - quoting Hakim Bey
[18:18:25] deck: I think that if most social networking were event based, like this discussion, I'd have a warmer feeling about it. As it is, the systems, like LinkedIn and FB seem to be more distraction than action.
[18:18:28] Tim Hailey: not software quality engineer at Zephyrt Associates
[18:18:36] Tim Hailey: but everything else
[18:18:41] Andreas Jacobs: HB is itself an autonomous zone and not here
[18:18:43] Ilias Marmaras: if you are ok why we do not repeat this conversation at 6th of december
[18:18:46] Julie Upmeyer: ok not bad then
[18:18:53] Tim Hailey: haha, thanks
[18:18:59] Ilias Marmaras: it is 2 years after the greek riots
[18:19:05] Ilias Marmaras: and it will be hot
[18:19:09] Andreas Jacobs: Ha politivs
[18:19:29] Tim Hailey: I'd like repeating this concerstaion every so often...Genco?
[18:19:33] deck: How do you throw molotovs in Skype?
[18:19:37] Julie Upmeyer: was it you that just accepted my facebook request?   ( I Hope)
[18:19:38] Tim Hailey: sound like a plan?
[18:19:40] { D F }: is internet a weapon?
[18:19:46] Andreas Jacobs: There are some things going in europe and we shoukd prepare for it
[18:19:47] Tim Hailey: yes Julie!
[18:19:53] Julie Upmeyer: ok good
[18:19:54] Ilias Marmaras: you send photos of the real ones
[18:21:01] Tim Hailey: I believe viruses and bots and whatnot are the molotovs of the internet, Andy
[18:21:01] Andreas Jacobs: Internet is a soft weapon see my project creative resistance as soft arms http://nictoglobe.com
[18:21:07] Genco Gulan: 6 of december we can try
[18:21:14] deck: But that's risky -- imposters could easily grab photos of old molotovs from Flickr and deceive us.
[18:21:24] Genco Gulan: would you be the moderator ilias?
[18:21:34] Tim Hailey: old molotovs have no spark
[18:21:44] Andreas Jacobs: @all weapons should not harm nut change!
[18:21:58] Tim Hailey: nut change!
[18:22:03] Genco Gulan: viruses, trojans are those the e-molotofs?
[18:22:11] Tim Hailey: I don't know what it means but I like it
[18:22:17] Andreas Jacobs: But change
[18:22:55] Genco Gulan: they hijacked my yahoo accaunt and i heard back from old high school friends that i have not talked to for many years...
[18:23:04] Tim Hailey: 6th of December is good for me
[18:23:08] Andreas Jacobs: Like differnt from the current prison we live in when internet tutns into a walled garden like in china
[18:23:24] Tim Hailey: I shall be closer to Genco's time zone then...and more awake
[18:23:48] Ilias Marmaras: i will be the moderator if u want
[18:23:54] Tim Hailey: and Turkey perhaps too, Andreas?
[18:24:55] Andreas Jacobs: I do not kniw about turkey but when google is putting moral pressure on governements we! Had to seperate a new form of inter connectnedness
[18:25:01] Ilias Marmaras: i can be co ordinator with dimitris
[18:25:09] Genco Gulan: we have an opening of WB at Plato art on 12th of Jan. 2011
[18:25:30] Genco Gulan: we play Zorba
[18:25:33] Andreas Jacobs: @genco tell us more
[18:26:36] Genco Gulan: A selection from the WB will be exhibited @ Plato Sanat, Istanbul btw. 12/15/10-02/15/11 curated by Dr. Marcus Graf.
[18:26:53] Andreas Jacobs: Cool
[18:27:04] Andreas Jacobs: Am i in it?
[18:27:08] deck: It's a strange time when Google is the motor for moral persuasion
[18:27:23] Andreas Jacobs: Yes
[18:28:35] Andreas Jacobs: @deck it is alarming, when the political constituion can be directed outside governments and into businesses
[18:29:25] deck: Citizens United has made Google an official citizen of the United States, too.
[18:29:27] Ilias Marmaras: performativity and the state thats how judith buttler describes this
[18:29:46] Genco Gulan: Google was ruling now fb and twitter fighting. Androids will catch them with iphonepads and than...
[18:30:56] deck: Android is Google catching its own tail, though.
[18:31:00] Julie Upmeyer: quick, no cheating, what is everyone listening to right now?
[18:31:01] Genco Gulan: last 30 minutes...
[18:31:17] Tim Hailey: nothing for me, Julie
[18:31:19] deck: A ticking clock.
[18:31:20] Andreas Jacobs: @all I have this proposal for works about reclaim the mind which is adressing this isdue among others Go check it out your collaborations are more then welcome see http://nictoglobe.com/new/query2.html?d=home&f=rtm
[18:31:32] Tim Hailey: I was listening to Genco but he cut me off!
[18:31:43] Tim Hailey: he was singing John Denver
[18:31:57] Genco Gulan: the sound of my kids fighting
[18:32:10] Andreas Jacobs: I go for a coffee
[18:32:35] Tim Hailey: what are you listening to Julie?
[18:32:52] Genco Gulan: [18:32] Andreas Jacobs:
<<< Andreas drinks only Jacobs
[18:33:15] Andreas Jacobs: LOL
[18:33:59] Andreas Jacobs: I am listening to Alice Coltrane Transcend
[18:34:37] deck: Who is the A. A. of the quote about the possibility of expressing social reform, Andreas?
[18:35:05] Julie Upmeyer: VV Brown. ;)
[18:35:17] Andreas Jacobs: It is me Agam Andreas aka Andreas Maria Jacobs
[18:35:45] deck: Sorry to out your aliasing...
[18:36:03] deck: thanks
[18:36:05] Andreas Jacobs: Mo problem
[18:36:09] Genco Gulan: i am going to put all this text on-line tonight - with your permissions of course. it is approximately 45 pages long at the moment. An DF maybe make a book out of it.
[18:36:20] Julie Upmeyer: fascinating read...
[18:36:28] Andreas Jacobs: DF?
[18:36:42] Genco Gulan: Dolce Fita
[18:36:46] deck: For the record, then:
[18:36:48] deck: "When the possibility of expressing social reform vanishes, time has come to change our minds. [A.A. 2010]"
[18:36:52] { D F }: yes, I can. I can copy/paste the text to blurb.
[18:36:55] Tim Hailey: i do not know this VV Brown, but I see she has canceled her date at the Bowery Ballroom
[18:37:10] Julie Upmeyer: ohh sorry.   she's fun
[18:37:36] Genco Gulan: @ deck. nice
[18:37:39] Andreas Jacobs: Lidia tomkiv anyone?
[18:37:56] Andreas Jacobs: Algebraic suicide?
[18:38:09] Andreas Jacobs: Athenatical photography?
[18:38:15] deck: Or is it a rejiggering of corporate control that's needed, rather than 'reforming' the social?
[18:38:53] Genco Gulan: I think Deck is not mobile anymore ;)
[18:39:17] Andreas Jacobs: There is a need to incorporate the coperate it is like disembodiment but in a broader perspective more like outing
[18:39:22] deck: One thumb good, two thumbs better.
[18:39:22] Ilias Marmaras: lets scan the exodus guys
[18:39:32] Genco Gulan: thumbs up
[18:40:15] Andreas Jacobs: Spinoza anyone?
[18:40:35] Ilias Marmaras: yes your love makes me more stronger
[18:40:43] Ilias Marmaras: baruch
[18:40:54] Andreas Jacobs: Nenedict
[18:41:12] Julie Upmeyer: going to go eat
[18:41:14] Andreas Jacobs: benedict is same name as barak
[18:41:22] { D F }: @Genco I will to my best to have the book ready by the end of this week Genco ;)
[18:41:22] Julie Upmeyer: bye everyone!
[18:41:30] { D F }: bye Julie
[18:41:37] Andreas Jacobs: Bye julie later?
[18:41:42] Ilias Marmaras: ok bye from me too
[18:41:52] deck: kale nikta
[18:41:53] Tim Hailey: bye Julie
[18:42:12] Tim Hailey: what are you eating?
[18:42:42] Ilias Marmaras: andy i am in a conversation with '' a revolutionary force'' about a possible show from you here down town
[18:42:59] Ilias Marmaras: i will let you know soon
[18:43:11] Genco Gulan: i will join andy
[18:43:13] { D F }: That would be great!
[18:43:27] Ilias Marmaras: yeah if you like we can arrange this
[18:43:28] deck: I'm overdue for an old european adventure
[18:43:43] Ilias Marmaras: overdue?
[18:43:49] Ilias Marmaras: speak french
[18:43:50] Genco Gulan: greek is oldest europea
[18:44:11] deck: Ca fait du temps depuis ma derniere visite
[18:44:17] Ilias Marmaras: a oui
[18:44:48] deck: @$^% Don Rumsfeld, alors
[18:45:14] Tim Hailey: the forgotten man
[18:45:44] Genco Gulan: allora dans
[18:45:52] deck: Do they let you in Greece now, Genco?
[18:45:52] Ilias Marmaras: gd night everyone i hope i will see you at 6th of december (or something like this )
[18:46:07] Tim Hailey: goodnight Ilias
[18:46:21] Genco Gulan: Well, it is a big problem to get Visa
[18:46:25] { D F }: @deck He is VERY welcome!
[18:46:44] Ilias Marmaras: i can mary you genco
[18:46:53] Genco Gulan: i will swinm under the water
[18:46:56] deck: Be careful Genco...
[18:47:01] Andreas Jacobs: 6th december the birthday of the old revolutionary from Myrs St Nicolaus!
[18:47:01] { D F }: lol
[18:47:31] deck: This may require Arduino
[18:47:41] Genco Gulan: i am trying to develope gills
[18:47:57] deck: Or 64-bit
[18:48:14] Andreas Jacobs: I am now on 3 G
[18:48:14] Genco Gulan: well virtuality works in this context
[18:48:17] deck: Capacitive touch border hacking?
[18:48:31] Tim Hailey: your baby fish
[18:48:35] { D F }: there's an app for that!
[18:48:48] Genco Gulan: wirelesss leaching for borderless interactivity....
[18:48:52] Andreas Jacobs: Cellphony to the bone
[18:49:07] Genco Gulan: boner for Bonanza
[18:49:10] deck: Word / byte
[18:49:26] Andreas Jacobs: 2 bytes in a word
[18:49:52] Ilias Marmaras: and u r famous for the next 15 mb
[18:50:04] Tim Hailey: haha
[18:50:21] { D F }: lol
[18:50:24] deck: We'll send it from a not spot by pigeon, then for fullest effect
[18:50:36] Genco Gulan: 22 ah al am an ay by by de di eh el en ex genco go ha he if in is it ki Ku la li ma mi na no nu of oh om on or os ox pe pi po Ra ri Ro so ta ti to uh us ve we ya yo!
[18:50:55] Genco Gulan: my last poem in words. it is called 22.2
[18:51:20] deck: What does it bring up in The Google?
[18:51:41] Genco Gulan: it is brand new. for yur eyes only
[18:51:43] Andreas Jacobs: Alphebatic doup or semantic trap?
[18:52:00] deck: It could be the key to decoding the Algorithm.
[18:52:05] Genco Gulan: poem with 2 letter words
[18:52:16] Genco Gulan: except my name
[18:53:09] Andreas Jacobs: RHIZOME ANNOUNCE: ISEA2011 ISTANBUL Call for Papers, Panels, Workshops and Artworks
[18:53:19] Genco Gulan: last 8 minutes, it was a long journey. 4 hours...wow
[18:54:37] Tim Hailey: thanks for arranging Genco
[18:54:47] Genco Gulan: th<anks for your time, see in december 6th. we will exchange emails about the exact timing.
[18:54:57] Andreas Jacobs: RECLAIM the MIND"When the possibility of expressing social reform vanishes, time has come to change our minds. [A.A. 2010]"
[18:55:04] Genco Gulan: any last questions comments
[18:55:32] Andreas Jacobs: We invite artists, writers, academics to contribute to our call for works by submitting works, which reflects upon 'Reclaiming the Mind', in a broader sense, ranging from visuals, videos, musics, essays etc. to:
[18:56:05] deck: Net-art is dead, long live Net-art!
[18:56:17] Tim Hailey: nice
[18:56:25] Andreas Jacobs: submissions2011@nictoglobe.com
[18:57:27] Genco Gulan: I think this could be the next title: Net-art is dead, long live Net-art!
[18:57:58] Andreas Jacobs: Bye all thanks for being part of it till 6 decu
[18:58:10] Tim Hailey: I like that title
[18:58:17] Genco Gulan: iyi akşamlar
[18:58:22] Tim Hailey: bye Andreas
[18:58:34] { D F }: 58:01, 58:02, 58:03, 58:04, 58:05, 58:06....
[18:58:36] Andreas Jacobs: Bye tim
[18:58:45] deck: burada iyi gunlar
[18:58:48] { D F }: Bye bye ALL!
[18:58:50] Andreas Jacobs: Bye genco
[18:58:51] Genco Gulan: günaydın Tim
[18:58:55] Andreas Jacobs: By df
[18:58:55] { D F }: tHANK YOU!
[18:58:55] Tim Hailey: ciao DF
[18:59:00] Andreas Jacobs: By deck
[18:59:07] Andreas Jacobs: Bye amfy
[18:59:13] Genco Gulan: kali nihta
[18:59:28] Andreas Jacobs: Ma a salamaa
[18:59:42] { D F }: @Genco we ll be in touch for the publication
[18:59:44] deck: Bye all.
[18:59:56] Tim Hailey: bye Andy
[19:00:07] Tim Hailey: Genco, unhold our call
[19:00:27] Genco Gulan: bye all
[19:00:43] { D F }: a nice title too: unhold our call
[19:01:05] Tim Hailey: true