Web Biennial 2005 - esymposium- panel 1: Net-art versus Web Art

WB05 e-Symposium. The first Online Panel with the title “Net-Art versus Web Art”.

Click here to see previous messages:

Participants: Trebor Scholz (New York), Steve Dietz (Minnesota), Genco Gulan – moderator- (Ankara), Andrej Tisma (Novi Sad), Dimitris Fotiu (Athens), Alberto Guedea and Jeremy Owen Turner (Vancouver) and Mercedes Gonzalez de Garay (Istanbul).

Date: 9. December 2005 chat on Skype. Exact timing below GMT + 2

 

[ 18:40:18 ] Trebor Scholz says: Hi, Are we on in an hour or so?

[ 19:36:23 ] Steve Dietz says: yes, that's my understanding

[ 19:48:07 ] Genco Gulan says: hello I am online now

[ 19:48:34 ] * Genco Gulan added Mercedes de Garay, Andrej Tisma to this chat

[ 19:50:00 ] Trebor Scholz says: Steve?

[ 19:50:03 ] Steve Dietz says: here

[ 19:50:33 ] Trebor Scholz says: Hi everybody.

[ 19:50:46 ] Genco Gulan says: Hello all! At the Moment I am in the last session of a Symposium with the title: ???Islamische Ästhetik in der Modernen Kunst“ at Goethe-Institut Ankara.

[ 19:51:08 ] Trebor Scholz says: Great. I have roughly an hour here in cold New York .

[ 19:51:20 ] Steve Dietz says: Same here in Minneapolis .

[ 19:51:33 ] Andrej Tisma says: Hi I am glad we are all together now.

[ 19:52:42 ] Mercedes de Garay says: Hello everybody! It´s Mercedes,I work with Genco at the Istanbul Contemporary Art Museum .

[ 19:52:55 ] Genco Gulan says: yes! I think this software is working

[ 19:53:19 ] * Genco Gulan has changed the chat topic to "Net Art versus Web Art"

[ 19:53:21 ] Andrej Tisma says: So in 10 minutes we can start?

[ 19:53:24 ] Mercedes de Garay says: please Genco,add Alberto,he is waiting

[ 19:53:36 ] Mercedes de Garay says: albertoguedea its his nick

[ 19:54:05 ] Mercedes de Garay says: no,wait,I can add him

[ 19:54:15 ] * ko_kotxa added albertoguedea to this chat

[ 19:54:32 ] * Genco Gulan added Jeremy Owen Turner to this chat

[ 19:57:39 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: hello all!

[ 19:57:50 ] albertoguedea says: hi!

[ 19:57:53 ] Mercedes de Garay says: hello Dimitris

[ 19:58:02 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: hello!

[ 19:58:11 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: hi guys

[ 19:58:32 ] albertoguedea says: hi everyone

[ 19:58:36 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: i m on time i supposse!

[ 19:58:44 ] Mercedes de Garay says: yes!

[ 19:59:03 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: Web Biennial' Greece presentation went fine!

[ 19:59:03 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: 10 AM here

[ 19:59:23 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ...now they want more ;)

[ 19:59:24 ] Genco Gulan says: Hello all, welcome to the First Online Symposium of the Web Biennial 2005.

[ 19:59:31 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: thank you

[ 19:59:34 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: hi Genco

[ 19:59:48 ] Genco Gulan says: Hi Dimitris

[ 20:00:32 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ... in greece next time, they said... they ll pay for it

[ 20:00:43 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: they really liked it

[ 20:00:55 ] Mercedes de Garay says: that´s very good!

[ 20:00:56 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: charge them $100 per person next time ;-0

[ 20:00:59 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: by the way, it was really good!

[ 20:01:06 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: :)

[ 20:01:21 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: (i ll charge them more ;))

[ 20:01:56 ] Andrej Tisma says: So Genco, we are ready, we can start with the subject discussion.

[ 20:02:00 ] Genco Gulan says: OK. The first question for you all; How do you compare Web art with Net-art. For me those are two different things, what do you think?

[ 20:02:46 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ... i really have no idea about the difference. Why are they different?

[ 20:02:48 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: well, it is a difference of semantics...net implied networks, web also implied networks but through cyberspace…

[ 20:03:10 ] Mercedes de Garay says: I think net art only have it´s real meaning on the net.

[ 20:03:18 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: (this is a question for me too.)

[ 20:03:22 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I do see a difference in online art between

web and net art in which the first is merely documentation and archives and that which the second is a form of streamed performance. Net art can also mean mobile phones and stuff like that - anything that is networked

[ 20:03:46 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: web art though is limited to the W.W.W in cyberspace

[ 20:03:58 ] Genco Gulan says: For me it is possible to properly document web art but not (always) net-art. Steve shall we go on with you?

[ 20:04:18 ] Steve Dietz says: I agree with the idea that Web art is a specific subset - http based - of a larger category net art, which includes ftp, sms, etc. Does it include bonfires?

[ 20:04:41 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: in the case of Graham Thomson's work, it does include bonfires :)

[20:05:19] Andrej Tisma says: In short, net-art would mean all networks of artists, working in the network, networking, that includes mail-art, radio, video network, SMS, meetings, collaborations by different means, internet too of course. Web-art is more specifically linked to WWW, the web, that means internet. That is why I prefer term "web-art" for this we are doing on the Internet.

[ 20:05:22 ] Trebor Scholz says: The web runs like a passenger on the bus of the Internet. Sure, it's different.

[ 20:05:49 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I guess we are in agreement here :)

[ 20:05:55 ] Steve Dietz says: Andrej, wouldn't that be Internet art?

[ 20:06:18 ] Steve Dietz says: W.W.W. is only one set of protocols running on the Internet.

[ 20:06:23 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ... but when people are talking about net.art they are usually thinking of the web, isn't this correct?

[ 20:06:39 ] Alberto Guedea says: true

[ 20:06:44 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: this is the current trend but I think it is very misinformed. Net art itself comes out of satellite and (streaming) video art from the 70s among other platforms…

[ 20:07:06 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: you are right.

[ 20:07:08 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: the earliest email art comes out of Artex which also utilized faxes

[ 20:07:08 ] Steve Dietz says: I'm not just thinking about the Web. ;)

[ 20:07:09 ] Genco Gulan says: For me net-art and Internet art is similar but also quite different. For example at the moment we are using Skype and not a regular browser, so...

[ 20:07:45 ] Andrej Tisma says: O. K. Internet art, but for people W.W.W is usually a synonym for the Internet.

[ 20:07:53 ] Trebor Scholz says: Web and net art have distinctly different meanings. Stuff you on the W.W.W. is http driven. On the Internet you also have telnet, ftp…

[20:08:21] Jeremy Owen Turner says: yes, for me, this is closer to being streamed performance although it will also serve as a kind of archived documentation...so this session fulfills two subsets of web art (and being part of the larger net art situation)

[20:08:23] Genco Gulan says: I think these chat machines – that are supported with more and more audio and visual features- will soon be transforming all of our metaphors...

[ 20:08:45 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: do you mean chatterbots? ai programs?

[ 20:08:46 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: when i am reffering to a net.art piece or an artwork that takes place over the internet i usually call it : Internet art

[ 20:09:15 ] Andrej Tisma says: Then Internet is wider term than web, isn't it?

[ 20:09:16 ] Genco Gulan says: Steve and Trebor we have been discussing these issues on “physical” panels all the time, how does it feel online now?

[20:09:21] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I think in some ways trying to make a distinction between net art and web art becomes petty as we are heading towards a full media convergence

[ 20:09:39 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ... i think Internet includes all forms

[ 20:10:00 ] Steve Dietz says: I agree that, A useful question is: Why distinguish between them?

[ 20:10:10 ] Genco Gulan says: And Mercedes, you are the new generation and you are on Skype, MSN all day long. Why do you prefer these instead of TV for example?

[ 20:10:14 ] Trebor Scholz says: For me, the terms are less important. I am curious how consequential these practices are socially. Net.art is again a different thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net.art from Net Art or Internet art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netart

[ 20:11:01 ] Mercedes de Garay says: mmm because in this I can choose what I want to see, more or less.

[ 20:11:34 ] Mercedes de Garay says: it's not a real election

[ 20:11:43 ] Genco Gulan says: Yes Trebor, we should discuss the content a bit more not only the techical part. Dimitris what did people tell you in Athens about the content of the WB05?

[ 20:12:26 ] Andrej Tisma says: The first question was about differences between net and web, of course internet is wider term, it is TV too, phone, radio...

[ 20:12:28 ] Genco Gulan says: And should an artist be an activist? Andrej do you call yourself an activist?

[ 20:12:31 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ... most of them where a bit surprised. In some cases I had to show how to view the works.

[ 20:13:14 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: those kind of things do not take place in Greece so often…

[ 20:13:18 ] Mercedes de Garay says: but is part of the work how people watch it

[ 20:13:19 ] Genco Gulan says: Dimitris, did they find the content political? [ 20:13:24 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: but they where all positive

[ 20:14:00 ] Genco Gulan says: Trebor how does your students react to the contents of the online works you show them?

[ 20:14:02 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: in some part, yes. but they liked it. i think political art cannot be avoided.

[ 20:14:23 ] Andrej Tisma says: Yes, I am activist and I use the medium of Internet for communication. But earlier I was a mail-art activist, net worker activist, performer in 80s.

[ 20:14:35 ] Trebor Scholz says: On a list that I am running we are just having a discussion about activism. That may be interesting in this context:

http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/2005-December/thread.html

[ 20:14:57 ] Genco Gulan says: …and Jeremy and Alberto how does the difference of performing online compared to onsite?

[ 20:15:11 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I will let Alberto speak first about it

[ 20:15:47 ] Genco Gulan says: Steve how is ISEA 2006 going on? Shall we do some networked gigs all together next year?

[ 20:16:17 ] Andrej Tisma says: I wanted to say, before I was activist in some other networks, now I am activist in the web.

[ 20:16:33 ] Steve Dietz says: I think distributed participation is an interesting goal.

[ 20:16:56 ] Steve Dietz says: We are doing a "bandwidth" stand, for performances collaborating from remote locations - music mostly.

[ 20:17:09 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I will only speak from my personal experience

[ 20:17:13 ] Steve Dietz says: But also open to other ideas of performance in the networks.

[ 20:17:15 ] Genco Gulan says: Steve I think we should also work on this for Refresh!

[ 20:17:19 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: excellent idea, Steve! My experience is a little different from Alberto's

[ 20:17:52 ] Genco Gulan says: How did you guys find Refresh? Was that Refreshing at all?

[ 20:17:53 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I have played in touring physical bands and have recorded with physical bands (since 1989)

[ 20:18:07 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: yes, Refresh! was very refreshing...

[ 20:18:26 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: anyways, in virtual performance, one is not directly connected with audience reaction

[ 20:18:38 ] Genco Gulan says: Or was the Refresh! became a conference to legitimize conservative efforts?

[ 20:18:47 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: One question: what about the "money" ? Can artists be able to earn from an Internet art piece. I point this because Internet art is still not sold…

[ 20:18:49 ] Mercedes de Garay says: (sometimes is better like this) :)

[ 20:18:58 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ... apart from special cases

[ 20:19:02 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: in Athens , we could not determine what the audience thought of our performance and therefore could not feed off the audience's energy…

[ 20:19:03 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ... i know

[ 20:19:23 ] Alberto Guedea says: The main difference was the lack of interaction with the receivers of our performance

[ 20:19:24 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: Refresh was both - it should be both as it is a history conference

[ 20:19:50 ] Steve Dietz says: The remote conference was very interesting model, I think: http://www.remote.org.nz/pics/morning/adamhintro.html

[ 20:19:53 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: if it is truly punk, it should not be about the money ;)

[ 20:19:55 ] Genco Gulan says: But we all know that many people earn quite good money on Internet, what do you think Steve?

[ 20:20:37 ] Genco Gulan says: And Trebor how was the prog:me festival at Rio de Janeiro ? You were in Rio just a month before me.

[20:21:24] Steve Dietz says: I always say there should be a rich ecosystem that allows for open source / open communities / free as in speech stuff along with the possibility of collecting, payments, etc. and that the key is one should not be privileged over the other but appropriate to artist goals and context.

[ 20:21:43 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: Internet art includes many forms of art: 1. form art 2. sound art 3. animation. 4. activism 5. game art

[ 20:21:48 ] Steve Dietz says: Sorry. http://www.remote.org.nz/

[ 20:21:48 ] Trebor Scholz says: I'm stunned when filmmakers tell me how they live for the group of 50 people in the audience. They see the net as socially isolating . They think probably of that isolated obese teenager in some basement clicking away in a chat room. But I have never experienced much group-feel in a cinema. In fact the situation is quite similar to the net where one sits in the dark facing a flickering screen.

[ 20:21:52 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: 6. interactive art 7. punk art

[ 20:22:11 ] Genco Gulan says: Hey guys, am I too fast? I swear all questions are spontaneous ;-). Do you have any questions for me?

[ 20:22:17 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: does anyone here know about Brian Eno's and Peter Gabriel's Online Musicians union? The mandate could also be applied to "net art".

[ 20:23:02 ] Genco Gulan says: I think what hotmails - the concert- can also be considered net art only if...

[20:23:01] Alberto Guedea says: At the same time, it gives you the freedom to explore the performance more deeply.

[ 20:23:14 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: they are

[ 20:23:37 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I agree with Alberto....performing online is much more contemplative (self-contemplative, that is as the audience is not very visible)

[ 20:24:03 ] Alberto Guedea says: Specially this one which is intended to be Chat and Audio based

[ 20:24:09 ] Genco Gulan says: Actually I enjoy this kind of non linear texts!

what do you say Mercedes? Tell us about your friends....

[ 20:24:25 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: yes, Alberto and I are also in an avatar band called The Gates where there is more "physical" interaction…

[ 20:25:08 ] Genco Gulan says: Trebor and Steve do I go too fast?

[ 20:25:14 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: the avatar program, as compared to Skype, allows for teleprescence and 3D visual representation (and virtually spatial audio)

[ 20:25:16 ] Mercedes de Garay says: I mean,with my friends?how I talk with them? How we use internet?

[ 20:25:32 ] Steve Dietz says: no, not too fast.

[ 20:25:33 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: Genco, I think it was a great idea to organize this. And I hope we will participate into more future projects in the future

[ 20:25:39 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: agreed

[ 20:26:18 ] Trebor Scholz says: Prog:Me was enjoyable. It bridged the cultural Rio / Sao Paolo divide. And it was the first media art festival in Rio ! Access to the Internet is definitely an issue in Brazil . Poverty is glooming. But I say that a bit with caution as other countries that we may consider developing countries are well wired. One of my activist Chinese students decided to start a women blogging community in a mountain village in Southern China . They have DSL there but probably never saw a video camera in their life.

[ 20:26:23 ] Genco Gulan says: Mercedes I think your generation uses the media different than us

[ 20:26:43 ] Mercedes de Garay says: I think Internet is just another tool. I don't think is a generational difference. Its more about personality…

[ 20:27:23 ] Mercedes de Garay says: some people can not communicate anything with a computer.

[ 20:27:32 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: when we say there is a generation gap, which generations are referring to?

[ 20:27:38 ] Mercedes de Garay says: and some doesn't know how to do it without it…

[ 20:27:45 ] Genco Gulan says: And how is Serbia doing Andrej? How are the responses you got from your “Out doors” web-art exhibition?

[ 20:27:47 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: some people say that Gen X are people born from 1962-1982

[20:28:11] Steve Dietz says: As the net becomes a pencil - a tool in Baldessari's terms - then is the question of "web art" as a medium important or are the generalized characteristics of networking more important?

[ 20:28:57 ] Genco Gulan says: I am 1969! But even I sometimes feel I am going too slow, for example I developed a java chat machine but Trebor proposed Skype! Trebor how does it feel now?

[20:29:01] Trebor Scholz says: Steve- Shklovsky's idea of Art as Device can be brought in here too…

[ 20:29:05 ] Andrej Tisma says: Outdoors went very well, it was in frame of one big manifestation so it had hundreds of visitors.

[ 20:29:25 ] Steve Dietz says: more.

[ 20:29:31 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: i think net.art was a movement like the Neen now. Check www.neen.org

[ 20:29:51 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: Internet art includes all those forms…

[ 20:30:06 ] Trebor Scholz says: I'm not a particular fan of any kind of IM but it's not too fast.

[20:30:20] Genco Gulan says: But the devices are changing...fast...will Web Art be history soon -thanks to Refresh- and we will start talking about IM art?

[ 20:30:31 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I should point out that the earliest living "net artists" were born in the early 1930s...how about that for a generation gap? ;)

[ 20:30:55 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: VoIP platforms like Skype are part of the whole net art experience, in my opinion

[ 20:30:56 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ...but as i thought net. art is the abbreviation of Inter"net" art is

[20:31:01] Genco Gulan says: I see generation gaps even in myself!!!!

[ 20:31:39 ] Mercedes de Garay says: I don't think like that (maybe because I'm very young!)

[20:31:41] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I agree with you there, Genco...this is probably because culture itself is following the 18 month cycle of obsolescence found in Technological upgrades

[ 20:31:57 ] Genco Gulan says: So how do you see guys see Turkey from abroad?( Not you Mercedes!)

[ 20:31:59 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: Moore 's Law applied to Cultural Transformation

[ 20:32:04 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: lol

[ 20:32:13 ] Alberto Guedea says: I found interesting that Rhizome is changing it's name, it won't be Net Art News anymore

[ 20:32:23 ] Steve Dietz says: to what?

[ 20:32:41 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ...you re doing great i suppose. i onlu know about the culture

[ 20:32:42 ] Alberto Guedea says: they are looking foe a new name

[ 20:32:44 ] Genco Gulan says: Is it the culture or the technology that is transforming!

[ 20:32:49 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: This is how The Hotmails see Turkey - http://thehotmails.com/istanbul.html

[ 20:33:06 ] Alberto Guedea says: just Net Art News will change not Rhizome

[ 20:33:11 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: (how is rhizome news gonna be called?)

[20:33:18] Andrej Tisma says: For one decade, in 80s, a huge group of artist that have use different communication media, even meeting, called themselves "networkers" - that means net artists. Now I want to make distinction, but I agree the essence is the same - COMMUNICATIO in the net and in the web.

[ 20:33:35 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I would say that both culture and technology are converging and becoming obsolescent at the same rate outlined in Moore 's Law (Gordon Moore - founder of Intel)

[ 20:33:37 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ..its a chemistry i suppose

[ 20:34:35 ] Genco Gulan says: What about Istanbul Steve, Trebor, Andrej, Dimitris???? Mercedes what attracted you to the city?

[ 20:34:43 ] Alberto Guedea says: http://rhizome.org/thread.rhiz?thread=19560&page=1

[ 20:35:14 ] Steve Dietz says: What do you mean by obsolescence? To me, the least interesting part of "new media" is "new." At ISEA we're doing projects that are paper cup telephone networks and carrier pigeons. Newness is not as important as the experience or the intent, so obsolescence not sure what that means in terms of culture?

[20:35:36] Genco Gulan says: Communication is very important but is it getting better with high tech or just getting mixed up as it is here?

[ 20:35:39 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I am speaking in terms of mass-culture

[ 20:35:50 ] Steve Dietz says: I've never been to Istanbul , and I don't think networking with people there is the same. ;)

[20:35:51] Jeremy Owen Turner says: in the arts, the old can be new again as a retro statement but more and more things seem retro earlier and earlier, nostalgia was 18 months ago

and I think the acceleration of "newness" is a good thing

[ 20:36:55 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: as it defines the qualities of "New" Media

[20:37:01] Dimitris Fotiu says: I believe there are many things growing in istanbul . i think this is only a good start for a future art process.

[ 20:37:04 ] Steve Dietz says: hmmm

[ 20:37:06 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: otherwise the word "New" in "New Media" becomes a pretense

[ 20:37:07 ] Alberto Guedea says: is never the same, each country and group of people has a very different way to approach networked art

[ 20:37:26 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I liked the Newsweek article about Istanbul

[20:37:32] Genco Gulan says: Steve if we invited you to Istanbul to a conference, Refresh 3038 for example or ISEA 2009 do you think we could communicate better in a physical location?

[ 20:38:10 ] Andrej Tisma says: I have never been in Istanbul too. Closest to it I was on Cyprus and Malta . Tunisia .

[ 20:38:11 ] Genco Gulan says: At the moment I am sitting in a large conference room alone, well not really we are all together right?

[ 20:38:46 ] Steve Dietz says: I'm not trying to be dogmatic. I think it depends on what you are trying to communicate, but as a group with a long term agenda, I do think face to face helps the network communications.

[ 20:39:00 ] Steve Dietz says: I've worked with lots of artists I've never met in person.

[ 20:39:03 ] Trebor Scholz says: Yes.

[ 20:39:05 ] Steve Dietz says: Seems normal.

[20:39:13] Alberto Guedea says: In Athens was very refreshing to see the great interest that people showed, and the willing to interact with the net art pieces and explore them. Here in Vancouver people can be more distant.

[ 20:39:17 ] Steve Dietz says: But also different after we meet, often.

[20:39:23] Genco Gulan says: We should bring you guys to Istanbul sometime, actually our Istanbul Contemporary Art Museum aims to bring ISEA 2010 to Istanbul-physically.

[ 20:39:24 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: face2face helps in the short term

[ 20:39:24 ] Trebor Scholz says: Face-to-face speeds up online collaboration

[ 20:39:32 ] Steve Dietz says: right.

[ 20:40:00 ] Steve Dietz says: But I don't think face to face has much to do with "viewing" net art.

[ 20:40:04 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: face2face also builds trust (usually)

[ 20:40:06 ] Steve Dietz says: That's not what I'm saying.

[ 20:40:23 ] Genco Gulan says: Of course face to face works but it is expensive. Think if we tried to come together, calculate the cost, than the plane fuel and its effects to global warming...

[ 20:40:25 ] Trebor Scholz says: In fact i believe that for an online project to be sustainable there need to be "real life" relationships or even friendship.

[ 20:40:57 ] Andrej Tisma says: Personal contact is most effective, we have many senses, not only eyes and ears.

[ 20:41:09 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I will play devil's advocate for a second, sometimes meeting people in person ruins the magic of the experience

[ 20:41:13 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: just think of online personals

[ 20:41:36 ] Genco Gulan says: Real life is very, very important, I agree you Trebor...but what is real anyway?

[ 20:41:37 ] Mercedes de Garay says: the move of the body, the expression, you can not show it with skype!

[ 20:42:03 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: not yet anyways...

[ 20:42:08 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: wait 18 months...lol1

[ 20:42:09 ] Genco Gulan says: Mercedes you make nice photos with your digital camera though!

[ 20:42:12 ] Steve Dietz says: It's definitely true that some relationships are better virtual!

[ 20:42:26 ] Mercedes de Garay says: sometimes i feel really impotent with this type of communication

[ 20:42:45 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: yes, I was hoping this was going to be an audio chat at least

[ 20:42:54 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ..in my opinion this is the magic: we all meet here, then we go to a show. Nam June Paik was the first who imagined the global entertainment , the he produced his "Global Groove "piece

[ 20:42:57 ] Trebor Scholz says: Online everybody can be a dog as they say. The identity game is interesting online. Also this link may be useful for people here http://del.icio.us/Trebor/Net_Art

[ 20:42:59 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: *piece

[ 20:43:09 ] Genco Gulan says: I have more virtual friends than real ones! For example Andrej is a Virtual friend for almost ten years?

[ 20:43:43 ] Alberto Guedea says: perconal contact can be more effective in an inmediate way. but an internet/ web real-time work can be as effective. it depends on the concept behind and the execution of it

[20:43:44] Jeremy Owen Turner says: yes, in avatar worlds such as Active Worlds, for example, people spend many hours online being exactly that...dogs! ;)

[ 20:44:02 ] Andrej Tisma says: Yes Genco, and still we feel warmth to each other.

[ 20:44:36 ] Genco Gulan says: Yes, it is true!

[ 20:45:04 ] Andrej Tisma says: But we met through Evgenija, a magician of communication. Maybe you could have include her too in this chat.

[ 20:45:19 ] Mercedes de Garay says: for many people is the only way to comunicate others, its because that, they can be exactly what they want

[ 20:45:31 ] Mercedes de Garay says: the american dream... ;)

[20:45:48] Genco Gulan says: Yes, I think we should organise another online meeting for next week and maybe invite some more people?

[ 20:46:03 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: that is what I like about avatar worlds, in particular, you can choose your own identity from scratch

[ 20:46:05 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: sure

[ 20:46:25 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: ok, sounds good to me (depends on the time as I am 8 hours behind GMT)

[ 20:46:38 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: i still have a question: the net.art versus web art point

[ 20:46:44 ] Mercedes de Garay says: mmmmm leave it! Hehehe!

[ 20:46:56 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: lol

[ 20:47:08 ] Andrej Tisma says: The "Chaos in Action" was a huge and powerful communication project, with texts, images, video, performances, live camera...

[ 20:47:33 ] Genco Gulan says: But now we have more real time interaction?

[ 20:47:59 ] Andrej Tisma says: Yes, technology has advanced.

[ 20:48:00 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: by performing in front of the web cam

[ 20:48:25 ] Genco Gulan says: Trebor does your student believe that art can change things or am I getting old school again?

[ 20:48:51 ] Trebor Scholz says: This medium of IM is interesting. Ideas appear and disappear like flickers on the screen. We talk across each other and reference back while the thread already move forward from one issue to the next in seconds. Swarms online spark off ideas. The nicest thing about it is the quick WWW references. It's almost like a dance to the beats of the Skype Inbox. The windows moves further down and further. A long string appears of loosely joint pieces in Ankara , New York , Minneapolis .

[ 20:49:35 ] Steve Dietz says: nice.

[20:50:01] Genco Gulan says: Yes, it is a different feeling, better than the piece of code I wrote! But my eyes started to hurt as well!

[ 20:50:03 ] Andrej Tisma says: How poetic.

[20:50:28] Jeremy Owen Turner says: yes, agreed...the fast scrolling can get overwhelming in some of those text-based MUDs though...I do not know how those people keep up - they need graphics to slow them down ;)

[ 20:50:50 ] Alberto Guedea says: exactly, IM has a very particular way of comunicating ideas

[ 20:51:02 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: yes, it is more contemplative in IM than a realtime RPG

[ 20:51:05 ] Genco Gulan says: I think we can work on this software more cause you can also send files...

[ 20:51:16 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ....the only performances that take place at this time is the xxx porn ones. Apart from anna-cam. I think there is a huge space for performance artists to explore.

[ 20:51:19 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: also, we are discussing academic topics, not just chopping each other in half ;)

[ 20:51:33 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: *real time i mean

[ 20:51:38 ] Andrej Tisma says: But I think one hour is a good time limit. Quick reading and writing exhausts.

[ 20:52:05 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: there are webcam performances but they are not well advertised and there are also avatar performances and machinima style performances

[ 20:52:11 ] Steve Dietz says: Agree. And I think it's a good idea for web biennial to host regular topics/ conversations.

[ 20:52:27 ] Genco Gulan says: Shall we say next week same time or any other comments?

[ 20:52:32 ] Trebor Scholz says: Friends, I need to head off into the woods. I think the original intention of this was a publication, right. Maybe we can kick a little text back and forth? Or do you think that IM will generate a text that works? What do you think?

[ 20:52:39 ] Alberto Guedea says: but even with regular topics, the sense is very different. that is one of the main reasons we used in our performance.

[ 20:52:59 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: i think the next time we can organize a performance show. coming from many different countries

[20:53:01] Jeremy Owen Turner says: the problem with most webcam applications (outside of having the latest version of Mac's Tiger OS and/or an academic video access grid), is that the performances are usually 1-1 without an additional audience to view the performance

[ 20:53:28 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: sounds good

[ 20:53:29 ] Alberto Guedea says: and of course...... the emoticons........ another interesting topic

[20:53:49] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I am still available to chat for a bit more if the sessions wants to continue for a bit longer...Trebor, where do you live?

[ 20:53:49 ] Genco Gulan says: Yes, i liked this non linear text. Most of the recent publications are sssssssssssoooooooooooo boring, this is at least more experimental!

[ 20:53:51 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ..yeah

[ 20:54:19 ] Andrej Tisma says: Next week same time - it is fine by me.

[ 20:54:20 ] Alberto Guedea says: true

[ 20:54:23 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: yes, "performing" emoticons is a very strange concept and this is only the beginning of a whole scene and tradition of emoticon DJs ;)

[ 20:54:38 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ok

[ 20:54:47 ] Trebor Scholz says: I live in Brooklyn , New York .

[ 20:54:51 ] Genco Gulan says: But Skype has also its own kitsch right?

[ 20:54:52 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I might be around next week depends on time zone and other commitments…

[ 20:54:57 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: there are woods in Brooklyn ?

[ 20:55:24 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: it sure does (have kitsch)...Jeff Koons would be at home on Skype and even more so on Yahoo Messenger ;)

[ 20:55:29 ] Andrej Tisma says: I think the discussion text may rest as it is, with some proof reading.

[ 20:55:42 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: yes, lots of typo correction would be needed ;)

[ 20:55:48 ] Trebor Scholz says: But seriously, I need to go. Yes, there ARE woods in Brooklyn . <emoticon of a tree>

[ 20:55:49 ] Genco Gulan says: I will stop 19:00 GMT sharp I have to go but please confirm for next week and than we are done...

[ 20:55:59 ] Trebor Scholz says: bye folks

[ 20:56:13 ] * Trebor Scholz left this chat

[ 20:56:14 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: I will try to attend next, I will email you about...thanks Genco for setting this session up

[ 20:56:22 ] Alberto Guedea says: if you think about it everything is kitsch :)

[ 20:56:32 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: yes, Art is Life and Life is Kistch ;-0

[ 20:56:35 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: confirmed! (just send a reminding e-mail, thanks)

[ 20:57:09 ] Genco Gulan says: Thank you for all and hope to talk to you next week.

[ 20:57:16 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: sounds good...bye for now

[ 20:57:18 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: ok guys, Friday at 18 GMT!

[ 20:57:20 ] Steve Dietz says: bye all. thanks.

[ 20:57:26 ] Dimitris Fotiu says: bye

[ 20:57:28 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: thanks everybody

[ 20:57:32 ] Alberto Guedea says: byy Steve

[ 20:57:33 ] Steve Dietz says: Friday of next week is difficult for me, but I will try.

[ 20:57:45 ] Mercedes de Garay says: byeee! adios atodos!

[ 20:57:49 ] Jeremy Owen Turner says: same here - I might be working on friday

[ 20:57:56 ] Genco Gulan says: (In Turkish) Hoscakalin!