<<<<<<<<< net.art and real time revolt >>>>>>>>>>>: Is it still the same?"


 


Web Biennial 2010 e-conference Panel 2: Monday 06/12/2010 btw 20:00 and 22:00 Athens time zone- online through SKYPE chat.


moderators: Dimitris Fotiu (Athens) andIlias Marmaras (Athens) Participants: Genco Gulan (Istanbul) , Andre Tisma (Novi Sad),  Julie Upmeyer (Istanbul), Marcus Graf (Istanbulasia), Andy Deck (New York), Ali Miharbi (New York), Demetra Dertili (Athens), Ian Wojtowicz, voltnoi breg, bager akbay (Plato), Lucille Calmel (home)

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[19:58:21] { D F }: hello!!!!
[19:58:51] { D F }: do you see now?
[19:58:55] { D F }: now???
[20:00:41] { D F }: add me to the conference
[20:07:45] *** { D F }, buraya deck adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[20:08:16] *** { D F }, buraya Ilias Marmaras adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[20:08:26] *** { D F }, buraya demetra adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[20:08:45] { D F }: hello all!
[20:09:00] Genco Gulan: hey!
[20:09:14] Ilias Marmaras: hello all
[20:09:14] Genco Gulan: hey!
[20:09:23] *** { D F }, buraya Daphne Dragona adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[20:09:25] Genco Gulan: OK working
[20:09:33] { D F }: great!!!
[20:09:48] { D F }: let me add som more.... one moment
[20:09:51] Ilias Marmaras: in tis page :http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1232296
[20:09:55] demetra: hello
[20:10:09] Ilias Marmaras: some pics of the ongoing events down town in athens today
[20:10:52] Genco Gulan: its all Greek!
[20:11:06] Genco Gulan: nice pics though!
[20:11:07] Ilias Marmaras: there are several things related with web / networking arts and riots (or revolts if u prefer
[20:11:24] Ilias Marmaras: i was there until an hour ago
[20:12:01] Genco Gulan: I am glad you are OK
[20:12:09] Daphne Dragona: hi all
[20:12:18] { D F }: hi Daphne!
[20:12:21] { D F }: hello all!
[20:12:26] Ilias Marmaras: well, its not the parisian communa revolution exactly
[20:12:46] demetra: would you like it to be
[20:12:52] Ilias Marmaras: mostly a well known game between anarchists and the riot police
[20:13:05] Ilias Marmaras: i would but....
[20:13:08] demetra: ?
[20:13:10] { D F }: however... all the center of athens is closed.
[20:14:17] demetra: like the sound of the helicopter in the skies
[20:14:44] Ilias Marmaras: demetra is a citizen and works on a phd regarding identities at the internet...
[20:15:31] Genco Gulan: This is the football wars from Istanbul: http://www.htspor.com/bursaspor/haber/578149-dev-mac-oncesi-olay
[20:16:06] { D F }: ouch!
[20:16:09] Genco Gulan: yesterday the center of Istanbul was closed as well, beşiktaş!
[20:16:12] { D F }: was this today Genco
?
[20:16:26] Ilias Marmaras: well from a point of view what is going on in the streets of athens is like a football war
[20:16:34] { D F }: they say nothing here on tv...
[20:16:46] { D F }: no media coverage for trouble
[20:17:25] *** Ilias Marmaras, buraya voltnoi brege adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[20:19:11] Ilias Marmaras: so hoaw many are we here?
[20:19:15] Ilias Marmaras: how
[20:20:31] Genco Gulan: Again this sunday students protested our prime minister: http://netteyim.net/haber/Guncel/erdogana_ogrenci_protestosu-haberi-239012.html
[20:22:52] deck: I can type, too, but only for a minute
[20:23:08] { D F }: ok
[20:23:14] *** deck gönderdi Screen shot 2010-12-06 at 1.23.02 PM.png ***
[20:23:23] Genco Gulan: DF can you add Jeremy Owen Turner
[20:23:57] { D F }: sure
[20:24:02] { D F }: i cant see him
[20:24:10] { D F }: what is his skype name?
[20:24:16] voltnoi brege: Me too
[20:24:18] *** Genco Gulan, buraya İlayda Altuntaş, Julie Upmeyer, Dr. Marcus Graf, Oliver Grau, Tim Hailey adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[20:24:36] *** deck gönderdi Screen shot 2010-12-06 at 1.23.02 PM.jpg ***
[20:25:23] Ilias Marmaras: i cant see ur post andy
[20:25:32] voltnoi brege: I cant see anyone except helvetica on my screen
[20:25:38] *** { D F } gönderdi Screen shot 2010-12-06 at 1.23.02 PM.png ***
[20:25:57] Julie Upmeyer: whats going on?
[20:26:06] { D F }: what is Jeremy's skype name?
[20:26:09] deck: We're connecting awkwardly
[20:26:25] *** deck gönderdi deckChatting.jpg ***
[20:26:26] Ilias Marmaras: we need a kind of arrangement we cannot see each other
[20:27:04] demetra: why don't we talk about cognitive capitalism and resistance?
[20:27:59] Ilias Marmaras: volt can you see the names of the participants?
[20:28:03] deck: Define cognitive capitalism, perhaps?
[20:28:12] voltnoi brege: Yes
[20:28:18] Genco Gulan: Web Biennial e-conference: Panel 2. Today on December 6th @ 20:00 GMT +2 on SKYPE. Title is: Net-art is dead, long live Net-art!
[20:28:43] Ilias Marmaras: then add them
[20:28:48] Ilias Marmaras: as contacts
[20:29:04] deck: Okay, in my case Net Art has to go teach classes, but he's not dead.
[20:29:08] { D F }: I just sent some request to you
[20:29:11] demetra: when labour is defined through cognition on the net we call it cognitive capitalism.
[20:29:34] { D F }: did you see my requests?
[20:30:19] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Deniz Gu, Ian Wojtowicz adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[20:30:55] Genco Gulan: Ilias, I am sharing your links at FB.
[20:31:07] Ilias Marmaras: no pr
[20:31:15] Ian Wojtowicz: hi
[20:31:38] Deniz Gu: hi
[20:31:47] { D F }: hello all!
[20:32:11] Genco Gulan: Hi Ian
[20:32:16] Genco Gulan: Hi Deniz
[20:32:36] Genco Gulan: [20:28] Genco Gulan:

<<< Web Biennial e-conference: Panel 2. Today on December 6th @ 20:00 GMT +2 on SKYPE. Title is: Net-art is dead, long live Net-art!
[20:32:41] Julie Upmeyer: sorry all, I didn't have this on my calendar...leaving in a few min. have a good chat (rock)
[20:33:04] { D F }: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< net.art and real time revolt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[20:33:10] { D F }: lets start
[20:33:23] { D F }: is this possible?
[20:33:38] Genco Gulan: OK
[20:34:21] { D F }: is it net.art or activism?
[20:35:11] Genco Gulan: They hacked into my portal http:istanbulmuseum.org/ and attacking people with a malware. Is this "net.art and/ or real time revolt" ?
[20:35:50] deck: The notion that the Internet is connected to some sort of political liberation seems to be fading, at least in the US. The increasing use of the 'net as leisure chat, and as a cable television system seems to be crowding out any attention that might be left over.
[20:36:51] *** Genco Gulan, buraya annnnnnnnnne, bagerakbay adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[20:37:05] Ian Wojtowicz: Well political liberation and democracy in general has always been something that need to be *enacted* in whatever media are around.
[20:37:09] Ilias Marmaras: from a point of you this is happening here as well although there are some other aspects
[20:37:35] Ian Wojtowicz: It might be a good thing that the notion that the Internet is the panacea for better government or political reform is dying.
[20:37:51] Ilias Marmaras: in addition :Facebook activism does not succeed in motivating people to make a real sacrifice but in motivating them to do the things that people do when they are not motivated enough to make a real sacrifice.
[20:38:01] voltnoi brege: But we have so many channels
[20:38:10] Genco Gulan: This is I get when I try to check my site: "Saldırgan olarak bildirilmiş site!

istanbulmuseum.org konumundaki sitenin saldırı sitesi olduğu bildirildi ve açılması güvenlik tercihlerinize dayanılarak engellendi.

Saldırı sitesi olarak tanımlanan siteler özel bilgilerinizi çalan, bilgisayarınızı başkalarına saldırı amacıyla kullanan ya da sisteminize zarar veren programları kurmaya çalışan sitelerdir.

Bazı saldırı siteleri zararlı yazılımları bilerek dağıtırken, çoğu site, sahibinin bilgisi ve izni dışında bu amaçla kullanılır."
[20:38:40] Ilias Marmaras: from the other side what happens in the so called ''real world'' as i faced once more today it is just an other form of sacrifice
[20:38:58] Ian Wojtowicz: It should force people to really understand that change (or even maintenence of democratic societies) requires active, forceful communicative work.
[20:39:09] { D F }: @Genco did you tried to manage the site via the server page?
[20:39:58] Ilias Marmaras: agree what was the lack of today's protest was exactly the lack of an effective communicative tool
[20:39:59] Genco Gulan: @DF Yes, I changed my password NOW and tonight I will go over the source codes...
[20:40:25] demetra: how does control and resistance comminicate ilias?
[20:40:37] { D F }: @Genco OK. you can always access it via ftp i suppose
[20:40:59] *** İlayda Altuntaş ayrıldı ***
[20:41:18] demetra: listen ilias society is structured by power
[20:41:32] Ilias Marmaras: really?
[20:41:59] { D F }: my question is... how could net.art involve in a real time situation?
[20:42:05] demetra: without resistance it cannot define its weaknesses and strength
[20:42:28] Ilias Marmaras: by helping at the creation of the specific needed tools
[20:43:18] demetra: net.art cannot be part of massification so it will consist of minorities by definition
[20:43:40] Ilias Marmaras: net art should be the pop art of our era
[20:43:44] { D F }: and if the is a way to get involved... would it still called net."art"??
[20:43:45] Ilias Marmaras: but it isnt
[20:43:58] Genco Gulan: Internet is no more minor it is becoming massive
[20:45:11] Genco Gulan: Internet cafes are full even in remote villages and poor neighborhoods....
[20:45:15] demetra: yes it endlessly expands but it still functions through common interest and need so it forms minor froups of micro-powers
[20:45:25] demetra: groups
[20:45:49] { D F }: @Genco that is true!
[20:46:19] Ilias Marmaras: internet is not one internet anymore (if ever was)
[20:46:31] Ilias Marmaras: it is a fragmented network
[20:46:36] Genco Gulan: Bager, are you with us?
[20:46:40] bagerakbay: yes
[20:46:50] bagerakbay: I am listening
[20:47:01] Ilias Marmaras: most of the people -especially young generations - they perceive internet as fb
[20:47:01] demetra: power and its relations are also fragmented so should we conclude sth out of that?
[20:47:19] Ian Wojtowicz: The question is less about the general medium (the internet) and more about the systems one uses through the internet to further whatever political aims one has.
[20:47:24] demetra: regarding the net i mean
[20:47:30] Ian Wojtowicz: So understanding network science is important.
[20:47:55] Ian Wojtowicz: And understanding the various architectures that use the internet is also very important.
[20:48:02] Ilias Marmaras: it is important but it cannot be easily massive
[20:48:03] Ian Wojtowicz: "Architecture is politics."
[20:48:11] demetra: yes it is also a war of aesthetics on the net
[20:48:19] Ilias Marmaras: architecture of participation
[20:48:49] Ian Wojtowicz: So, are we talking about some specific political projects?
[20:49:11] Ian Wojtowicz: Perhaps examples would help guide a discussion on the role of art, culture and technology.
[20:49:38] *** Genco Gulan, buraya lucille calmel adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[20:49:45] Ilias Marmaras: to my point of view there was and there is one major political demand....
[20:49:46] demetra: maybe since space is a given on the net time and speed are more important, also in art
[20:49:57] lucille calmel: ??
[20:50:23] Genco Gulan: Hello Lucille
[20:50:42] Ilias Marmaras: to liberate us from the economical and labour bounds
[20:50:53] Ilias Marmaras: that reflect the so called social
[20:50:59] lucille calmel: sorry i am just back from a tour out of mind & body, no more brain to be in
[20:51:10] lucille calmel: have a nice chat
[20:51:32] Ian Wojtowicz: This is still quite vague. Who is "us"?
[20:51:48] Ian Wojtowicz: and what is "the social"?
[20:52:05] Genco Gulan: We are the World!
[20:52:21] demetra: the diffusion of practically everything as production and reproduction demands that people compete in order to take full advantage of cognitive products
[20:52:31] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Andrej Tisma adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[20:52:43] Ilias Marmaras: us means all subjects involved in surviving inside the frame context of post modern production forms
[20:52:56] Ilias Marmaras: in other words biopolitics
[20:53:10] lucille calmel: please i need to chat with my family i already blocked that chat but it camer back
[20:53:11] Genco Gulan: @ ilias: nice
[20:53:12] Ilias Marmaras: there ...where the man produces the man
[20:53:13] demetra: social is anything that becomes a collectivity in order to develop social values
[20:55:13] Ilias Marmaras: to put it in an other way... at this ''real time'' there is a police chopper that flies above the city i am living in and controls my natural right to be out there ...at the streets
[20:55:25] lucille calmel: i wanna be out please !!!!
[20:55:30] Ian Wojtowicz: Still vague. If we're talking about using the internet to create new forms of collectivized labor movements, I think that real change still happens on a local level.
[20:55:51] Ilias Marmaras: there is no more local
[20:55:54] demetra: i agree
[20:56:00] Ilias Marmaras: lets talk about glocal
[20:56:01] Ian Wojtowicz: It's interesting how the Internet, long considered to be a global medium, is helping many people organize themselves on the level of neighborhoods or cities.
[20:56:20] Genco Gulan: @ Lucille, jsut log out SKYPE and than Log in again...
[20:56:30] Ilias Marmaras: yes true but always in relation to something ''exterior''
[20:56:46] lucille calmel: please i am very tired & would like to hav e some privacy with my family so make me out of this (i blocked the & deleted the contact, but i am still in)
[20:56:46] { D F }: @lucille right click on the chat's name and click close
[20:56:51] Ian Wojtowicz: "glocal" is a very vague neologism from the 90s environmental movement. Do you really find it a useful term?
[20:57:08] demetra: yeah there always is an analog b/w immaterial and material in every sense, they are interdependent
[20:57:23] *** lucille calmel ayrıldı ***
[20:57:32] Ilias Marmaras: there are so many archeologies in use that i wouldnt stop in this specific one
[20:57:52] Ilias Marmaras: actually some things are going and come back again
[20:58:00] Ian Wojtowicz: You may not stop, but I still don't see the usefulness of it.
[20:58:08] Ilias Marmaras: depends the meaning that they get
[20:58:26] demetra: a glocality based on minorities would be better
[20:58:54] demetra: like us at the moment
[20:59:05] Ilias Marmaras: how can i describe an event that happens in my town and influences through the networks ''in real time'' several other towns/cities all over the continent
[20:59:10] Ilias Marmaras: ...at least
[20:59:29] demetra: i do not really think that they connect
[20:59:53] Ilias Marmaras: in other words...what is that and how we could call it that produces in nowadays the historical times
[20:59:54] demetra: it's not like the good old times of the international proletariat
[21:00:01] Ilias Marmaras: not time but times
[21:00:04] Genco Gulan: we are connected..
[21:00:05] Ilias Marmaras: in pluriel
[21:00:47] Ian Wojtowicz: Speaking about connectedness is a more clear to me. Then, the dynamics of that connectedness becomes important.
[21:01:00] Ian Wojtowicz: ie: what that that local event that affected events elsewhere?
[21:01:01] Ilias Marmaras: exactly
[21:01:08] Ian Wojtowicz: how did it do that?
[21:01:17] Ian Wojtowicz: did it contiue to ripple?
[21:01:28] Ian Wojtowicz: did the effects die out?
[21:01:28] Ilias Marmaras: the question then arises as: what is -if any- the common ground??????
[21:01:31] Ian Wojtowicz: and why?
[21:01:33] demetra: we are now talking about the cognitariat where ideas are inherently competent, that's what i mean
[21:01:59] Ilias Marmaras: why what? i lost you
[21:02:26] Ian Wojtowicz: And why did the local event that had effects elsewhere stop having effects at some point.
[21:02:44] Ian Wojtowicz: But this is all still very abstract. It would help to have some concrete examples to talk about.
[21:03:10] Ian Wojtowicz: Or either artworks or social or political movements.
[21:03:15] Ilias Marmaras: maybe because networkin problems ? not technical but in the level of sociality
[21:03:18] Genco Gulan: ...and the art of course...where does it fit in?
[21:03:42] Genco Gulan: ...or how does it stay out...
[21:04:12] Ian Wojtowicz: I don't think there really is much of a boundary between art, politics and society these days.
[21:04:29] Ian Wojtowicz: People talk of "culture wars" alongside of actualy military ones, for example.
[21:04:31] Ilias Marmaras: art? well me i have a problem with this term
[21:04:49] *** Genco Gulan, buraya Matteo Peterlini adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[21:04:57] Genco Gulan: Andrej, are you with us?
[21:05:00] demetra: the proletarian was less competive, there was a common ideology and intentions were shared, on the contrary the cognitariat is very competive because the value of truth is now disseminated so much and reproduced that it loses it distinction and becomes more abstract
[21:05:00] Ilias Marmaras: art is supposed to serve as a reservoir especially ment to provide ''bridges''
[21:05:19] Andrej Tisma: On the contrary, I think art today is very political. Especially on the net.
[21:05:24] demetra: yet it needs to survive and will fight until it falls
[21:05:30] Ilias Marmaras: does art provide bridges today?
[21:05:53] *** Genco Gulan, buraya carlo sansolo adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[21:06:14] Andrej Tisma: Art can open eyes, change the consiousness.
[21:06:15] Genco Gulan: well...maybe yes...maybe no...DF what do you say?
[21:06:53] Ian Wojtowicz: Sorry for asking always about words, but what does "cognitariat" mean?
[21:07:01] Ilias Marmaras: can close houses as well
[21:07:11] demetra: yes art plays a central role as it is even more powerful regarding the aesthetics of politics
[21:07:18] bagerakbay: art piece might show some new uses of the new network
[21:07:23] Ilias Marmaras: its a greek joke
[21:08:21] Genco Gulan: geek joke?
[21:08:32] Ilias Marmaras: no geek greek
[21:08:42] Andrej Tisma: Art is the sublimation of "spirit of time", and times today are very political, similar as in late 60s
[21:08:59] Ian Wojtowicz: Art and politics: for example we could use the example of Tina Fey's comedic impersonations of Sarah Palin as having a very substantial impact on the outcome of the election...
[21:09:33] Ilias Marmaras: sure i agree but i dont see art having an important role , except in stoke markets maybe
[21:09:35] bagerakbay: net.art in the beginning of internet and now should be defined differently.
[21:10:27] Andrej Tisma: I am expecting now a theter piece, drama using WikiLeaks characters.
[21:10:56] demetra: yes, it follows the model of capitalism providing its which for gentrification
[21:10:58] bagerakbay: mobile phones and facebook made anonimity gone again so we might reconsider the use of net
[21:11:01] Genco Gulan: Wiki is the new super power!
[21:11:01] Ilias Marmaras: they are burning my car ... maybe
[21:11:20] demetra: wish i meant
[21:11:51] Genco Gulan: Terrorist have smashed my car years ago! We got used to it in Istanbul...
[21:11:52] Ian Wojtowicz: I think it's important to extend what we think of as net.art to include the massive creative output of people online in the form of remixed videos, humorous graphics and memes. Often these works, not performed by people we consider "Artists" operate in the realm of culture. They are a kind of net art brut that convey at times very poignant social and political messages.
[21:11:52] { D F }: why wiki? wiki is a library of a specific knowledge
[21:12:01] demetra: immateriality in a sense is always anonymous
[21:12:23] demetra: exactly we are in the age of knowledge economy
[21:12:28] Genco Gulan: When it leaks it is radiative ;)
[21:12:34] Ilias Marmaras: ok i sacrifice my car to the revolution :)
[21:12:45] Genco Gulan: viva zapata
[21:12:48] demetra: depending on what leaks ;)
[21:12:57] { D F }: i hope you wont have to ilias...
[21:12:57] Andrej Tisma: Just Wiki is stinking, nothing there yet discrediting about American leaders, just about foreign leaders...
[21:13:16] Ilias Marmaras: i hope too
[21:13:24] Ilias Marmaras: i will check it later
[21:13:28] Ian Wojtowicz: I think the US authorities responses to the WikiLeaks is doing plenty to discredit them.
[21:13:31] Genco Gulan: We should have art leaking...
[21:13:41] bagerakbay: @demetra : exactly, immateriality is losing its anonimity in a massive way
[21:14:04] Ilias Marmaras: ok wiki leaks is an issue but what exctly?
[21:14:30] Ian Wojtowicz: I'm studying at MIT right now and I just learned that Harvard graduate students are being discouraged from studying or blogging about WikiLeaks as it may affect their chances to get hired by the State Department.
[21:14:30] demetra: so is immateriality is fixed, named?
[21:14:49] demetra: for sure
[21:14:50] Ian Wojtowicz: That's thought policing.
[21:14:56] Ilias Marmaras: it is
[21:15:02] bagerakbay: being forced to , with mobile phones and social networks
[21:15:20] Andrej Tisma: In Wiki there still is nothing about CIA and Mossad staged terrorist attacks world-wide, collaboration with Al-Qaeda, support for opium production and distribution in Afghanistan, false flag attacks and political assassinations world-wide. But I expected more about that in American diplomats' "secret" cables. Obviously they were well selected, filtered.
[21:15:46] demetra: so the only way to overcome policing is to nullify control's projects
[21:15:55] Ian Wojtowicz: ... or these things don't exist.
[21:16:03] Ian Wojtowicz: that's the other radical possibility.
[21:16:14] Ian Wojtowicz: (To the extent people think they do.)
[21:16:16] bagerakbay: wikileaks is a new way of publishing news. more true (at least for a while)
[21:16:34] Andrej Tisma: Tnhose things are already published in media.
[21:16:48] Ilias Marmaras: and maybe we have to face a kind of overpassing some bureaucratic affairs inside the state departement power relations?
[21:17:03] Ian Wojtowicz: CIA and Mossad collaboration with Al-Qaeda? After 9/11? Where?
[21:17:13] bagerakbay: demetra : maybe the best is to fight against those systems, together, for ex diaspora vs facebook
[21:17:27] Ilias Marmaras: they are published most of us we know that but nobody talks about in the main stream media
[21:17:51] Andrej Tisma: @Ian So you are not well informed...
[21:17:58] demetra: yeah but then you let them into the secrets of warfare and knowledge solidifies them all the more
[21:18:06] Ilias Marmaras: so its a matter of setting a public discourse
[21:18:29] Ilias Marmaras: overpassing a form of hypocricy a social and media hypocricy
[21:19:09] Andrej Tisma: @Ian forst of all you should know Al-Qaed was organized an payed by CIA an USA, Bin Laden got donations from USA for years
[21:19:13] Ian Wojtowicz: @Andzej: Inform me then. I'm googling right now and i don't see any credible information about CIA/Mossad collaboration with Al-Qaeda. But send me a link if you have one.
[21:19:19] demetra: control needs resistance to exist otherwise it tends towards entropy
[21:19:47] Andrej Tisma: Attack in Mumbai was organized by CIA groups
[21:19:48] demetra: and the people are just plain docile bodies that obey
[21:20:26] Ian Wojtowicz: @Andrej: I wrote "after 9/11." Yes, it's well known that US foreign policy has funded various nefarious groups to further its larger aims at various times in history.
[21:21:14] Ilias Marmaras: i want to ask a question? is wiki leak web site a form of art?
[21:21:20] Andrej Tisma: Mumbai was ayesr or so ago, also the Christmas air plain "bomber" was installed by CIA
[21:21:31] demetra: NO
[21:21:39] Ilias Marmaras: why not?
[21:21:44] Andrej Tisma: in order to introduce body scaners at airport
[21:21:47] { D F }: @ilias i think it could be....
[21:22:09] Andrej Tisma: now after Wiki they could creck down on the free Intrenet
[21:22:36] Andrej Tisma: ssange is used as Bin Laden in 9/11
[21:22:47] Andrej Tisma: *Assange
[21:23:13] bagerakbay: if coding photoshop is art than creating wikileaks is art
[21:23:50] demetra: cos it prohibits or allows its leaks
[21:24:01] Ilias Marmaras: why assange is not on the run of a global performance of josef beus style?
[21:24:08] Andrej Tisma: Bin laden is American man, that is why they can not find him
[21:24:09] Ilias Marmaras: beys
[21:24:10] Genco Gulan: Scanners are sxxxy
[21:24:13] Ilias Marmaras: beuys
[21:24:17] demetra: art should be focused on the one hand but openended on the other
[21:24:34] Andrej Tisma: @Gula but deadly after years of use
[21:24:47] demetra: focused on the politics it wants to invest
[21:25:08] Genco Gulan: We will all be shiny sooon thanks to radiation
[21:25:18] Andrej Tisma: lol
[21:25:32] Andrej Tisma: Shine On You Crazy Diamond
[21:25:38] *** Ian Wojtowicz ayrıldı ***
[21:25:52] Genco Gulan: lol
[21:26:04] Dr. Marcus Graf: Hey Genco
[21:26:08] Dr. Marcus Graf: Every now and then
[21:26:11] Genco Gulan: Hey Marcus!
[21:26:13] Dr. Marcus Graf: i have a look at your chat
[21:26:22] Dr. Marcus Graf: it is quite :)
[21:26:31] Genco Gulan: Greek?
[21:26:33] Dr. Marcus Graf: i love the heterogeneous structure
[21:26:42] Dr. Marcus Graf: yes greek
[21:26:55] Ilias Marmaras: greek to all?
[21:26:58] Dr. Marcus Graf: Do you realize how
[21:27:03] demetra: how?
[21:27:04] Dr. Marcus Graf: quite it became
[21:27:10] Dr. Marcus Graf: when i entered
[21:27:20] Dr. Marcus Graf: i could be a virus
[21:27:26] Dr. Marcus Graf: ...
[21:27:40] Dr. Marcus Graf: but a nice one
[21:27:45] Dr. Marcus Graf: Hello to all
[21:28:00] demetra: hello to u too
[21:28:03] Dr. Marcus Graf: i will be the one who has to edit your panel for our book,
[21:28:21] demetra: excellent
[21:28:25] Dr. Marcus Graf: Regeneration.011
[21:28:29] deck: I hope everyone used good english while I was gone, then.
[21:28:31] Dr. Marcus Graf: Some of you will be in the show
[21:28:35] Dr. Marcus Graf: Hi Andy
[21:28:42] demetra: of monsters?
[21:28:46] demetra: ;)
[21:28:54] deck: Hi
[21:28:55] Dr. Marcus Graf: great work (Anti war)
[21:29:06] Ilias Marmaras: eh andy we know that an artist that doesn't speak gd english is not a gd artist
[21:29:08] deck: Rah rah.
[21:29:29] deck: Or a teacher who chats during class a good teacher. C'ya.
[21:29:44] demetra: poor italians of the renaissance then ilias ;)
[21:30:16] Genco Gulan: RE-reneration.011: A selection of WB will be exhibited @ Plato Sanat, Istanbul between 01/12/11-03/12/11 curated by Dr. Marcus Graf.
[21:30:17] Ilias Marmaras: poor philosophers that left their classes for adventures
[21:30:41] demetra: you cannot be successful without getting out there
[21:30:50] Dr. Marcus Graf: @Genco: What is the state so far (of the panel)
[21:30:55] Genco Gulan: [21:29] deck:

<<< Or a teacher who chats during class a good teacherlol
[21:31:28] demetra: can anyone explain why internet users are so addicted to the net?
[21:31:38] demetra: politically i mean
[21:31:43] Dr. Marcus Graf: i am not
[21:31:46] Dr. Marcus Graf: i am forced to
[21:31:48] demetra: ok
[21:31:56] Genco Gulan: @ demetre: radiation is addictve as caffein
[21:32:01] demetra: but others are, actually the majority
[21:32:11] demetra: hahahaha!
[21:32:12] Dr. Marcus Graf: how come
[21:32:21] bagerakbay: its an abstract interaction which could be defined by us for us
[21:32:26] Genco Gulan: DF how is th panel going?
[21:32:33] demetra: good that's one thing
[21:32:51] Andrej Tisma: Lets go back to the WikiLeaks
[21:32:58] demetra: us for us means a lot can you elaborate?
[21:33:26] Andrej Tisma: Someone said WikuLeaks are the 9/11 of free Internet
[21:33:50] demetra: as far as the wikileaks are concerned we should also look at the intention behind the firing of its personel
[21:34:24] Ilias Marmaras: if Macciaveli had a role in defining the art of 1400 , then cases as wiki leaks have to do as well
[21:35:01] Andrej Tisma: I am afraid Assange (maybe unwillingly) made a favor to CIA as an excuse to close down or better control the Internet, same as Bin Laden and 9/11 was an excuse for step down on civilian rights everywhere in the world.
[21:36:03] Ilias Marmaras: Macciavelli was also an excuse for Lorenco the magnificent but he provided the frame context to jordano bruno etc
[21:36:19] Genco Gulan: Assan Laden or Bin Ange...
[21:36:26] Ilias Marmaras: lol
[21:36:32] bagerakbay: demetra :We are not used to many levels of interaction we learned lately. for ex writing with real people which we dont see and not speaking for hours. or playing an mmorpg, checking friends without being recognized. These interactions are developed in years, they are designed by designers and evolved with users.
[21:36:37] Ilias Marmaras: bin assange
[21:36:38] Genco Gulan: lol
[21:37:08] demetra: so wikileaks are self-cancelled in a sense if they are doibg favours for the cia
[21:37:16] demetra: doing
[21:37:28] Genco Gulan: Ladenbook or twitage
[21:37:42] { D F }: so could WikiLeaks be art?
[21:37:51] Ilias Marmaras: this is not a bad ting by definition.... most of the academic and art world do the same thing...
[21:38:14] Ilias Marmaras: they provide excuses and (data) to the cia's of the world
[21:38:25] Andrej Tisma: We can be manipulated on the net without knowing it, we think we finally entered a free space of information thanks to WikiLeaks, we feel victorious, seeing Assnge as a hero, but it could be a trap and beginning of the end of free net
[21:38:33] Genco Gulan: Burak Arıkan made a great artwork with Turkishleaks: Ergenekon
[21:39:35] demetra: at bagerakbay then the us for us is a secret relation where in reality we are seeking for modes of hegemony that do not conform to the usual ones of capitalism
[21:39:42] bagerakbay: Andrej : of course it is time for countries and companies to attack internet they are already doing it. Soon everyone will learn math , we will use enryption more & more
[21:39:48] Ilias Marmaras: i think that Turkish should stop flyinf above our lake....otherwise we give all this discussion to wiki leaks :)
[21:41:19] bagerakbay: demetra : I have to think again
[21:41:33] Andrej Tisma: GOOD IDEA give this conference script to Wiki
[21:41:37] deck: (Andrej): Our "liberal" government has practically declared Wikileaks a terrorist organization....
[21:42:05] Ilias Marmaras: wiki leaks are welcome to exarcheia district tonight in athens
[21:42:16] Ilias Marmaras: terrorists meeting
[21:42:16] Andrej Tisma: Ye sI know, sam they did with Al-Qaeda which they made, supported and still support
[21:42:31] deck: Assange should move there, maybe. Eff the Swiss?
[21:42:44] bagerakbay: I think wikileaks is a terrorist organization (is not terrorism means something against dominant countries ?)
[21:42:50] demetra: guys i think we should walk downtown to the riots instead of sitting here and talking ;)
[21:43:14] Ilias Marmaras: o not again i had my dose of teargaz today
[21:43:36] Ilias Marmaras: and still i have to move toward exarcheia in order to sleep with xenia
[21:43:55] Genco Gulan: we are not organized any way...
[21:44:02] demetra: yeah but materiality is promising for any artist
[21:44:24] Ilias Marmaras: true but chaos is a contigency promisisng situation no?
[21:44:54] demetra: what part of it are we now sitting here?
[21:45:13] demetra: people are fighting out there and not analysing
[21:45:26] Genco Gulan: Jun Nguyen-hatsushiba is my new fb friend
[21:45:36] Ilias Marmaras: they are not fighting they are part of a game
[21:45:44] Genco Gulan: but he has no SKYPE in Vietnam
[21:45:54] demetra: i know that but we still have things to learn from it
[21:46:04] Ilias Marmaras: like the football match mentionned by genco in the beginning of this conversation
[21:46:41] demetra: is this person just a friend or someone we should know?
[21:46:46] Ilias Marmaras: lets fight for skype in vietnam for all then
[21:47:27] { D F }: too late ilias: http://www.skype.com/intl/en-us/prices/call-rates/cheap-calls-to-vietnam/
[21:47:32] Genco Gulan: US had bomed all the SKYPE in Vietkong villages...
[21:48:10] Ilias Marmaras: really??? where is francis ford copolla?
[21:48:24] deck: So it was AT&T behind Vietnam? I'm learning new things.
[21:48:24] Ilias Marmaras: skype apocalypse NOW
[21:48:30] demetra: the skype apocalypse
[21:48:34] { D F }: i think china does the same genco...
[21:50:12] Genco Gulan: http://www.lehmannmaupin.com/#/artists/jun-nguyen-hatsushiba/
[21:51:32] Genco Gulan: SKYPE is buiding an underground base in Aphganistan that will be connected to Leakagace galleries downtown...
[21:51:39] Ilias Marmaras: still wiki leaks extension of the conversation is missing
[21:52:09] { D F }: @Genco LOL
[21:53:15] Genco Gulan: μπουκάρανε διας με ματάδες τώρα στο μετρό και πάνε για μαζικές συλλήψεις...
υπολογίζεται να'ναι καμια 100ρια παιδιά μέσα, κύρια μαθητές και μικρές ηλικίες...
αν μπορούν να πάνε δικηγόροι και άλλος κόσμος ώστε με την πίεση του κόσμου να τους αφήσουν και να αποτραπούν οι μαζικές συλλήψεις...
όλοι-ες στου δρόμους
[21:53:38] demetra: do you speak greek?
[21:53:41] Ilias Marmaras: this is fucked up situation for some
[21:54:00] demetra: it is just kids in the metro being arrested
[21:54:07] Genco Gulan: σιγουρα πανε για συλληψεις!!
[21:54:15] Ilias Marmaras: actually tonight they arrest everyone
[21:54:16] demetra: for sure
[21:54:23] Ilias Marmaras: lol
[21:54:32] { D F }: To translate quick: about 100 children arrested
[21:54:39] demetra: hopefully no kid will be killed this time
[21:55:35] Andrej Tisma: But Assange is on safe place
[21:55:47] demetra: this is the materiality i am talking about, the analog to our situation here
[21:55:48] Andrej Tisma: like Bin Laden
[21:55:54] demetra: sure the safest
[21:55:57] Ilias Marmaras: Λιποθυμία από τα χημικά στη Τζαβέλα. Κόσμος μαζεμένος μέχρι να τον πάρει το ασθενοφόρο
[21:56:49] Ilias Marmaras: massive people fade outs in Tzavella str in exarcheia
[21:56:53] Ilias Marmaras: now
[21:57:14] Ilias Marmaras: from tear gazes
[21:57:15] demetra: cos of chemicals
[21:57:24] Genco Gulan: They did not let the kids even to demonstrate in Istanbul last sunday! AND Turkey still pretends to be a democracy?
[21:57:43] Ilias Marmaras: here they feed em with chemicals
[21:57:55] { D F }: here is ilias' source using google translation: http://ur.ly/xDex
[21:58:19] demetra: well democracy is perhaps a myth created by the state for the civilian's imaginary
[21:58:40] Ilias Marmaras: however , main stream greek media are broadcasting almost nothing...
[21:58:41] Genco Gulan: Trick or threat?
[21:58:58] demetra: both
[21:58:59] deck: Sounds familiar.
[21:59:00] Ilias Marmaras: in this sense our gossip tonight get a meaning
[21:59:26] Ilias Marmaras: sure andy FOX
[21:59:30] Ilias Marmaras: situation
[21:59:30] deck: Our narrow cast is low-ratings, low-revenue.
[21:59:43] Ilias Marmaras: true also
[22:01:03] Ilias Marmaras: no democracy was really born 400 meters from where i am now if you want i can get you in a guide tri[p demetra
[22:02:02] demetra: we could call it terror tourism
[22:02:31] Ilias Marmaras: december is back
[22:02:52] deck: Where is Twitter in all this? Do greeks Twitter?
[22:02:58] Ilias Marmaras: a lot
[22:03:00] Ilias Marmaras: andy
[22:03:25] Ilias Marmaras: actually twitter was the main networking platform in december 2008
[22:03:44] bagerakbay: in May when a guard died in the bank, we were getting every news from twitter from greece, even the blogs were closed that day
[22:03:54] deck: So all that is needed to ignite the mass media is to somehow capture Ashton Kutcher's attention.
[22:04:05] Ilias Marmaras: 3 guards
[22:04:11] Ilias Marmaras: dyied
[22:04:15] Ilias Marmaras: died
[22:04:29] Andrej Tisma: @Ilias democracy is a myth, the democracy in thet ancient time was not applied to women and to slaves. Same in our time - it is not applied to some groups of people
[22:04:30] Genco Gulan: Athenian democracy developed in the Greek city-state of Athens, comprising the central city-state of Athens and the surrounding territory of Attica, around 508 BC. Athens was one of the first known democracies. Other Greek cities set up democracies, and even though most followed an Athenian model, none were as powerful, stable, or as well-documented as that of Athens. It remains a unique and intriguing experiment in direct democracy where the people do not elect representatives to vote on their behalf but vote on legislation and executive bills in their own right. Participation was by no means open, but the in-group of participants was constituted with no reference to economic class and they participated on a scale that was truly phenomenal. The public opinion of voters was remarkably influenced by the political satire performed by the comic poets at the theatres.[1]
[22:05:01] Genco Gulan: another Wiki
[22:05:03] Ilias Marmaras: i know adrej but i am living in athens i have to be polite :)
[22:05:12] Andrej Tisma: lol
[22:05:16] Ilias Marmaras: lol
[22:05:28] Genco Gulan: lol
[22:06:03] demetra: guys forget if democracy is part of the gift economy of god, it is always to come
[22:06:06] demetra: it
[22:06:27] Ilias Marmaras: @andy http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23dem10 today tweets
[22:06:53] Ilias Marmaras: http://www.flickr.com/photos/endiaferon/5238435521/
[22:07:25] Genco Gulan: Also see: Why Turkey Is the only Muslim Democracy
by Bernard Lewis
Middle East Quarterly
March 1994, pp. 41-49
[22:07:54] { D F }: in english: http://ur.ly/xVbP
[22:08:32] demetra: what is it about genco briefly?
[22:09:09] Ilias Marmaras: http://www.babylonia.gr/media/k2/galleries//1284/Image00066.jpg
[22:10:56] Genco Gulan: Democracy in its Western form, that is, constitutional and representative government, is becoming popular again after a long period of relative unpopularity, and many people in nondemocratic countries are beginning to see in the Western form of democracy the best if not the only solution to their problems.
[22:11:46] Ilias Marmaras: what is this genco?
[22:12:14] Genco Gulan: -> the problem is, it starts with a discrimination...http://www.meforum.org/216/why-turkey-is-the-only-muslim-democracy
[22:13:10] demetra: yes but as a form of power this democracy conceals most of its intentions in order to avoid reaction
[22:13:23] demetra: and it has succeeded in that
[22:13:33] Andrej Tisma: democracy is a big lie
[22:13:56] Andrej Tisma: votes and voters are byed like a comodity in supermarket
[22:14:09] Genco Gulan: Steve Albini on being an artist recommended by Lucille Calmel : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw62MYwe5pQ&feature=related
[22:14:11] demetra: so the issue is about the value of truth and its source
[22:15:03] { D F }: @Andrej yes... they say a myth... while the reality is very different...
[22:15:42] Ilias Marmaras: at this moment in the athenian actual democracy above the place of murder of Alexis Grigoropoulos there are only Riot Policemen
[22:15:45] Andrej Tisma: America started about 50 wars in 20th century in the name of democdracy
[22:15:53] Ilias Marmaras: semiologically its done
[22:16:33] Ilias Marmaras: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23dem10
[22:16:45] Andrej Tisma: I am dorry for Greeks and the country, but you didnt obey to USA so tose are consequences. I was bombed by them I know it well
[22:16:57] Andrej Tisma: *sorry
[22:18:58] { D F }: translation again: http://ur.ly/xVbP
[22:19:26] demetra: there are sieges going on in the centre
[22:19:47] { D F }: again... the media say nothing about what is happening right now
[22:19:50] demetra: we are listening at the news or reading twitter
[22:20:04] Andrej Tisma: yes I understand
[22:20:15] Ilias Marmaras: what art is doing anyway? lol
[22:20:22] Andrej Tisma: 300-400 people are surounded by police
[22:20:29] { D F }: yes...
[22:20:48] Andrej Tisma: mother of Alexnder is giving a speach
[22:20:53] Genco Gulan: Same was true in the riots in Tahran!
[22:21:00] { D F }: even if you walk there now... you suddenly get arrested
[22:21:30] Ilias Marmaras: we must organise some athen's tours on griots in order to save the economy
[22:21:33] Genco Gulan: We followed the Persian rebels from fb.
[22:21:41] Ilias Marmaras: (and restore democracy)
[22:21:49] demetra: mother is saying that they wanted a dead person that night
[22:21:50] Ilias Marmaras: where is slavoj zizek?
[22:22:02] *** Genco Gulan, buraya alimiharbi adlı kişiyi ekledi ***
[22:22:06] demetra: in his comfortable settings
[22:22:29] Genco Gulan: in a jaquzi with girls...
[22:22:35] alimiharbi: hello there
[22:22:38] demetra: under 30
[22:22:44] { D F }: wow
[22:22:49] Andrej Tisma: Zizek is reading Wikileaks
[22:22:58] Genco Gulan: Hello Ali! Your Internet sculpture at the fair was great!
[22:22:58] Ilias Marmaras: he is watering toulips
[22:23:04] demetra: about the greek riots tonighht
[22:23:13] Genco Gulan: Zizeks tube is leaking
[22:23:23] Andrej Tisma: lol
[22:23:28] alimiharbi: thanks genco. are we talking wikileaks today?
[22:23:34] { D F }: any link for the internet sculpture? i wanna see this
[22:23:39] Andrej Tisma: Athenleaks
[22:23:40] Genco Gulan: artleaks...
[22:24:03] Ilias Marmaras: xe xe
[22:24:14] Genco Gulan: it was great! a guy with a hudge ass no arms but big hands...
[22:24:25] Ilias Marmaras: athens is a social sculpture right now
[22:25:38] demetra: a plastic and moving one :)
[22:26:27] alimiharbi: DF, i dont have it online yet, someone blogged it on tumblr but tumblr is down..
[22:26:52] { D F }: OK. sounds very interesting :)
[22:28:02] Genco Gulan: beccarothwell

Loving following the Tate Britain occupation on Twitter as it happens! Excellent work @SladeOccupation @PennyRed & many more! #solidarity 16 minutes ago via TweetDeck Retweeted by vrimmo
[22:28:56] Genco Gulan: ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ████ ████ ████ ████ ████ ████ ████ ████ ████ ████ ████ about 6 hours ago via Twitter for iPhone
[22:29:03] { D F }: any feedback before we close this conversation?
[22:29:13] { D F }: or you wanna go on??
[22:29:20] Andrej Tisma: Susan Philipsz wins Turner Prize
[22:29:43] demetra: nice interacting with you all, bye for now
[22:29:56] { D F }: bye demetra
[22:30:02] { D F }: :)
[22:30:15] Andrej Tisma: it was intense and interesting, thanks all
[22:30:30] Genco Gulan: Is Susan in fb?
[22:30:40] Andrej Tisma: dont know
[22:30:52] Andrej Tisma: I saw the news in twitter
[22:31:01] Genco Gulan: ANd demetra what is your full name?
[22:31:16] demetra: dertili
[22:31:33] alimiharbi: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Susan-Philipsz/143607792323202
[22:32:07] alimiharbi: look like a fan page
[22:32:11] Genco Gulan: Demetra Derti in FB?
[22:32:32] Ilias Marmaras: so what is next meeting?
[22:32:38] demetra: no i have an account but i do not use it
[22:33:22] Genco Gulan: Philips is not in twitter
[22:33:52] Ilias Marmaras: as far as i can see discussions contain general aspects based on some common linguistic structure as ''net art'' ''democracy'' etc and there are also some local lets say matters involved
[22:34:18] Genco Gulan: DF any concluding remarks?
[22:35:04] Ilias Marmaras: http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/img_2220pzn4yo.mov
[22:35:15] Ilias Marmaras: a local conclusion
[22:35:17] alimiharbi: hmm i could only catch the conclusion part i guess..
[22:35:49] Andrej Tisma: I missed the first hour...
[22:35:55] bagerakbay: Can someone upload the full log somewhere ?
[22:36:19] Genco Gulan: We all seem to be tired after two hours. I think that communication and art and networks may help democracy but it is not the bitter remedy!
[22:37:39] Genco Gulan: From Safak Uysal through FB:http://www.t24.com.tr/content/authors.aspx?article=2908&author=64

Bir gün, bütün çocuklarımız "ABV!!! (Allah belanızı versin!) diye bağırarak bizi terkedip bilinmeyen bir gezegene gitse, Küçük Prens'in ardından, Exupéry'nin yaptığı gibi, ne yaparız? Bir dakika çocuklar, açıklayabiliriz, mi diyeceğiz, ne?
...
[22:38:36] { D F }: i think the "real time" is the keyword that could connect things in this discussion. I found very interesting that twitter was able to inform what is happening right now in athens to various places on that planet, while in this country the media covered almost nothing
[22:39:57] Genco Gulan: Same was true in Iran elections which is argued to be ruled with a different regime...
[22:39:58] Ilias Marmaras: art re definition is urgent
[22:39:58] Andrej Tisma: the real time is always the "real thing"
[22:40:39] { D F }: so... how art can connct with the real thing in such situations?
[22:40:40] Andrej Tisma: here and now is the essence
[22:41:13] Andrej Tisma: thanks to net we were all in the same place
[22:41:17] { D F }: *connect
[22:41:30] Andrej Tisma: in the same time
[22:41:32] { D F }: another county
[22:41:33] Genco Gulan: net-art may help us be there and now...
[22:41:39] { D F }: with online citizens
[22:41:54] Andrej Tisma: nice said
[22:41:56] Genco Gulan: SKYPE nation ;)
[22:41:57] { D F }: *country
[22:42:19] { D F }: ...and it's own democracy...maybe?
[22:42:29] Andrej Tisma: net has no space or time limits
[22:42:47] { D F }: or shall will delete the term?
[22:42:54] Andrej Tisma: at least it was like that before Wikileaks
[22:42:58] Genco Gulan: Elif Aydın Başterzi is asking from FB: why mass media say nothing about event ,do you have any idea?
[22:43:23] Ilias Marmaras: because thats why we call em mass media
[22:43:41] { D F }: because they try to keep the people quite Genco
[22:43:53] Genco Gulan: Jeremy Owen Turner says from FB: ahhh...I fell back asleep for a nap during that time..thought it would have been noon..oh well..sorry to miss it again.
[22:44:05] bagerakbay: because its not happening if you dont know
[22:44:10] { D F }: people feel safer that way
[22:44:29] { D F }: and vote easier
[22:44:50] Andrej Tisma: so globalists can do thir job
[22:45:00] Andrej Tisma: *their
[22:45:01] bagerakbay: i think greeks need broadcast hacking
[22:45:21] { D F }: yeah...!!!!
[22:45:27] Andrej Tisma: Greek need leeks
[22:45:41] Genco Gulan: Geekyleaks
[22:45:49] Andrej Tisma: *Greeks ned leaks
[22:46:01] Genco Gulan: lol
[22:46:39] { D F }: THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR BEING HERE!
[22:46:50] bagerakbay: thank you
[22:46:53] Andrej Tisma: thank you too
[22:46:59] Genco Gulan: Çok Teşekkürler
[22:47:14] alimiharbi: thanks
[22:47:47] { D F }: Genco, keep us informed for the next meeting
[22:48:14] alimiharbi: yeah i was totally lost in this one :)
[22:48:45] { D F }: lots of things said, that is true
[22:48:54] Ilias Marmaras: well, gd night or gd day to everybody
[22:49:01] { D F }: bye bye all!
[22:49:03] Ilias Marmaras: when is the next meeting?
[22:49:04] { D F }: :)
[22:49:14] Andrej Tisma: bye all, it was nice meeting you
[22:52:19] Genco Gulan: On 19th next month we will have a WB show opening and than we might have a panel that weekend.